Comments on: L. Ron at Ground Zero http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:54:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Zizka http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5331 Zizka Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:39:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5331 I agree with Neel. If you look at the most objectionable things that the established churches have ever done, or even what they're still doing somewhere in the world, a lot of them reach Scientology levels. Brainwashing, manipulation, and extortion of money are not new tactics. I agree with Neel. If you look at the most objectionable things that the established churches have ever done, or even what they’re still doing somewhere in the world, a lot of them reach Scientology levels. Brainwashing, manipulation, and extortion of money are not new tactics.

]]> By: Keith http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5330 Keith Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:48:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5330 Dan the Man: <i>“The LDS Church believes the dead who did not have a chance to convert while alive can and should be baptized.” That is just wierd.... that just sounds too goofy for me.</i> Unless I'm wrong, the Catholic Church initially allowed for baptisim of the dead. If a religion believes in Heaven and in the concept of Original Sin, it's a pretty elegant way of getting everyone born more than 2000 years ago, and non-believers since then, into Heaven. Now, what about angels and the heads of pins? Neel Krishnaswami: <i>any major religion you can name has at least as much screwed-up headjob ideology in it as Scientology</i> I'm aware of several major religions, and I can't think of any -- not a single one -- with as much "screwed up headjob ideology" as Scientology. Feel free to elaborate! But before you do, watch "Repo Man" first! Dan the Man: “The LDS Church believes the dead who did not have a chance to convert while alive can and should be baptized.” That is just wierd…. that just sounds too goofy for me. Unless I’m wrong, the Catholic Church initially allowed for baptisim of the dead. If a religion believes in Heaven and in the concept of Original Sin, it’s a pretty elegant way of getting everyone born more than 2000 years ago, and non-believers since then, into Heaven. Now, what about angels and the heads of pins? Neel Krishnaswami: any major religion you can name has at least as much screwed-up headjob ideology in it as Scientology I’m aware of several major religions, and I can’t think of any—not a single one—with as much “screwed up headjob ideology” as Scientology. Feel free to elaborate! But before you do, watch “Repo Man” first!

]]> By: xenuphile http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5329 xenuphile Tue, 07 Oct 2003 00:48:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5329 A politician I know is constantly getting (discreetly labelled) Co$ literature, in which Isaac Hayes and other celebs tout the efficacy of the Church's various drug treatment programs. Especially popular are programs for the ultimate captive audience- prison inmates and recent releases. Watch for the Co$ to hit the ground running when/if the faith-based insanity starts in the US. And watch the prompt backlash from your more 'respectable' religions. btw- zizka: "Mormons actually hold boy-girl dances in their churches. I don’t know of any other church of which this is true." You might just not get out much. A politician I know is constantly getting (discreetly labelled) Co$ literature, in which Isaac Hayes and other celebs tout the efficacy of the Church’s various drug treatment programs. Especially popular are programs for the ultimate captive audience- prison inmates and recent releases. Watch for the Co$ to hit the ground running when/if the faith-based insanity starts in the US. And watch the prompt backlash from your more ‘respectable’ religions. btw- zizka: “Mormons actually hold boy-girl dances in their churches. I don’t know of any other church of which this is true.” You might just not get out much.

]]> By: KevinNYC http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5328 KevinNYC Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:24:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5328 During the massive East Coast blackout, when most folks were worrying how they would get home or if it was terrorism Scientologists were out on the Streets of New York recruiting. During the massive East Coast blackout, when most folks were worrying how they would get home or if it was terrorism Scientologists were out on the Streets of New York recruiting.

]]> By: Tom http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5327 Tom Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:21:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5327 "As any good reader of Entertainment Weekly knows, Kidman was born and raised a Catholic; her half-hearted embrace of Scientology (and her move back to Catholicism) was reportedly a factor in the end of her marriage to Cruise." You mean Cruise dumped the paralyzingly gorgeous Kidman because she wasn't drinking enough of the Scientology Kool-Aid? What more proof do you need that Scientology drives you nuts? (BTW, anybody remember Frank Zappa's parody of "L. Ron Hubert" on "Joe's Garage"?) “As any good reader of Entertainment Weekly knows, Kidman was born and raised a Catholic; her half-hearted embrace of Scientology (and her move back to Catholicism) was reportedly a factor in the end of her marriage to Cruise.” You mean Cruise dumped the paralyzingly gorgeous Kidman because she wasn’t drinking enough of the Scientology Kool-Aid? What more proof do you need that Scientology drives you nuts? (BTW, anybody remember Frank Zappa’s parody of “L. Ron Hubert” on “Joe’s Garage”?)

]]> By: Harry Tuttle http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5326 Harry Tuttle Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:49:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5326 <i>1946: After discharge from the US Navy in February 1946, Ron returns to writing, although his primary thrust continues to be the development of a means to better the condition of men.</i> Do they mean <a href="http://fusionanomaly.net/babalonworking.html">this</a>? Not a single credit to the Ordo Templi Orientis in his "official" biography... Scientologists hate competition. 1946: After discharge from the US Navy in February 1946, Ron returns to writing, although his primary thrust continues to be the development of a means to better the condition of men. Do they mean this? Not a single credit to the Ordo Templi Orientis in his “official” biography… Scientologists hate competition.

]]> By: bigring55t http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5325 bigring55t Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:55:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5325 amature- That was one hell of an article you linked to. I no longer feel bad about ordering pizzas delivered to Mr. Hubbard at CoS addresses for fun when I was youger. amature- That was one hell of an article you linked to. I no longer feel bad about ordering pizzas delivered to Mr. Hubbard at CoS addresses for fun when I was youger.

]]> By: Armature http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5324 Armature Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:15:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5324 <p><a href="http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/20010911-tragedy/">Speaking of Scientologists at Ground Zero...</a></p> <p>BTW, NB: the CoS spiders the web and Usenet aggressively for anti-CoS voices. Post here and you will probably end up in their "shit list" database; you do so at your own risk.</p>

Speaking of Scientologists at Ground Zero…

BTW, NB: the CoS spiders the web and Usenet aggressively for anti-CoS voices. Post here and you will probably end up in their “shit list” database; you do so at your own risk.

]]> By: Zizka http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5323 Zizka Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:03:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5323 Nicole still has that scary steely-eyed look. I don't feel quite up to it. I'm pretty much waiting for Winona Ryder to sink a bit lower in the world, down to my level. I figure another felony should do it. Neel -- one of the defining features of "born-again" Christianity is that, while you ARE born into it, it doesn't count until you have an adult conversion experience. It goes back to the Anabaptists who didn't believe that infant baptism could mean much. Episcopalians, Lutherans or Catholics are born that way and stay that way unless expelled for serious cause. I was married to a Mormon and she told me that the church is not guilt-based. No hellfire, no images of Christ on the cross, and little sex guilt. Early marriage is the solution for the problems of puberty. I've also been told that guys are allowed/encouraged to go out in the world and see if they want to stay there, or whether they'd prefer the coziness of the church. Mormons actually hold boy-girl dances in their churches. I don't know of any other church of which this is true. The music and dancing are watched but not terribly closely, and a non-Mormon friend from a Mormon town claims that they use the girls as bait to encourage the conversion of promising young guys. Early marriage again. Nicole still has that scary steely-eyed look. I don’t feel quite up to it. I’m pretty much waiting for Winona Ryder to sink a bit lower in the world, down to my level. I figure another felony should do it. Neel—one of the defining features of “born-again” Christianity is that, while you ARE born into it, it doesn’t count until you have an adult conversion experience. It goes back to the Anabaptists who didn’t believe that infant baptism could mean much. Episcopalians, Lutherans or Catholics are born that way and stay that way unless expelled for serious cause. I was married to a Mormon and she told me that the church is not guilt-based. No hellfire, no images of Christ on the cross, and little sex guilt. Early marriage is the solution for the problems of puberty. I’ve also been told that guys are allowed/encouraged to go out in the world and see if they want to stay there, or whether they’d prefer the coziness of the church. Mormons actually hold boy-girl dances in their churches. I don’t know of any other church of which this is true. The music and dancing are watched but not terribly closely, and a non-Mormon friend from a Mormon town claims that they use the girls as bait to encourage the conversion of promising young guys. Early marriage again.

]]> By: --kip http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5322 --kip Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:43:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5322 My favorite book on Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard is Jon Atack's exhaustive <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/081840499X/qid=1065382960/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_7/002-2382855-6572868?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" target="_blank">A Piece of Blue Sky</a>. (Scientologists have been checking it out of libraries and failing to return it for years.) --Best pre-cult Hubbard anecdote (aside from being the only Naval commander to fire on Mexican soil during WWII): Hubbard fell in with Jack Parsons, founding member of JPL and head of a Californian branch of the OTO, and proposed a venture to buy motorboats in Florida that left Parsons shy of several thousand dollars and his girlfriend. Apparently, Aleister Crowley himself tried to warn Parsons that Hubbard was little more than a mountebank... My favorite book on Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard is Jon Atack’s exhaustive A Piece of Blue Sky. (Scientologists have been checking it out of libraries and failing to return it for years.)—Best pre-cult Hubbard anecdote (aside from being the only Naval commander to fire on Mexican soil during WWII): Hubbard fell in with Jack Parsons, founding member of JPL and head of a Californian branch of the OTO, and proposed a venture to buy motorboats in Florida that left Parsons shy of several thousand dollars and his girlfriend. Apparently, Aleister Crowley himself tried to warn Parsons that Hubbard was little more than a mountebank…

]]> By: Neel Krishnaswami http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5321 Neel Krishnaswami Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:15:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5321 I've always thought that the difference between a cult and a religion is that most of a religion's members were born into it, rather than converting. I mean, any major religion you can name has at least as much screwed-up headjob ideology in it as Scientology, but since most of its members grew up with it they don't take it seriously. Converts are basically scarier because they take the nonsense seriously. I’ve always thought that the difference between a cult and a religion is that most of a religion’s members were born into it, rather than converting. I mean, any major religion you can name has at least as much screwed-up headjob ideology in it as Scientology, but since most of its members grew up with it they don’t take it seriously. Converts are basically scarier because they take the nonsense seriously.

]]> By: Ray http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5320 Ray Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:55:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5320 "What’s wrong with crank ideas getting public funding? What happened to the marketplace of ideas?" Well, here in the United States, we're supposed to maintain at least one distinction between "the marketplace of ideas" and "public funding." It's called separation of church and state. At any rate, Scientology hardly lacks private funding. It can enter boldly into any marketplace it chooses to. Even one of ideas. “What’s wrong with crank ideas getting public funding? What happened to the marketplace of ideas?” Well, here in the United States, we’re supposed to maintain at least one distinction between “the marketplace of ideas” and “public funding.” It’s called separation of church and state. At any rate, Scientology hardly lacks private funding. It can enter boldly into any marketplace it chooses to. Even one of ideas.

]]> By: Rob http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5319 Rob Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:52:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5319 Hell, creationism is rational next to the trinity. Hell, creationism is rational next to the trinity.

]]> By: Steve http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5318 Steve Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:25:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5318 <i>BTW, Nicole Kidman is on the prowl. In all her recent photographs she’s got that steely-eyed Scientology look on. Hot but scary.</i> As any good reader of <i>Entertainment Weekly</i> knows, Kidman was born and raised a Catholic; her half-hearted embrace of Scientology (and her move back to Catholicism) was reportedly a factor in the end of her marriage to Cruise. In particular, she apparently refused to let any children of hers be brought up Scientologist. BTW, Nicole Kidman is on the prowl. In all her recent photographs she’s got that steely-eyed Scientology look on. Hot but scary. As any good reader of Entertainment Weekly knows, Kidman was born and raised a Catholic; her half-hearted embrace of Scientology (and her move back to Catholicism) was reportedly a factor in the end of her marriage to Cruise. In particular, she apparently refused to let any children of hers be brought up Scientologist.

]]> By: Keith M Ellis http://crookedtimber.org/2003/10/04/l-ron-at-ground-zero/comment-page-1/#comment-5317 Keith M Ellis Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:42:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=386#comment-5317 Yes, the Mormons have some very strange beliefs, and they're certainly quite reactionary on many issues. Furthermore, there's that weird bit of conspiracy-like bombing and stuff that went on a few years ago. Having said that, I've had the interesting experience of every Mormon I've known more than casually to be what I've intuited as a very good person. But I brought up LDS because it's my understanding that some European countries have restricted their activities and investigated them similarly but not as extensively as they've investigated Scientologists. Anyway, it's absolutely astonishing the nonsense the Scientologists believe. But I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I can't get my mind around the idea that so many people swallow such utterly crackpot and transparently _ad hoc_ bullshit. But then, when I try to approach conventional religious docrtine with as fresh a viewpoint as possible, I'm equally astonished. Creationism, anyone? Yes, the Mormons have some very strange beliefs, and they’re certainly quite reactionary on many issues. Furthermore, there’s that weird bit of conspiracy-like bombing and stuff that went on a few years ago. Having said that, I’ve had the interesting experience of every Mormon I’ve known more than casually to be what I’ve intuited as a very good person. But I brought up LDS because it’s my understanding that some European countries have restricted their activities and investigated them similarly but not as extensively as they’ve investigated Scientologists. Anyway, it’s absolutely astonishing the nonsense the Scientologists believe. But I’m of two minds about this. On the one hand, I can’t get my mind around the idea that so many people swallow such utterly crackpot and transparently ad hoc bullshit. But then, when I try to approach conventional religious docrtine with as fresh a viewpoint as possible, I’m equally astonished. Creationism, anyone?

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