Comments on: Home schooling

By: David Zitzkat

David Zitzkat — Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:53:53 +0000

I have just finished a debate on homeschooling with Rob Reich. The debate can be found at: http://chn.proboards13.com/index.cgi?board=CHNFreedomForum&action=post I am an attorney and homeschooling parent. I represent homeschoolers as individuals (pro bono) and the Connecticut Homeschooling Network. I believe I can say that I have had a role in forming homeschooling policy in Connecticut, the best state in the country to homeschool. You are welcome to come to the CHN board if you wish to read the debate or comment. I would be happy to come to your board as well. This is my second attempt at posting, and I hope this one succeeds.

By: Dave Zitzkat

Dave Zitzkat — Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:35:58 +0000

Hi, I am a Connecticut Attorney and have just engaged in a debate on homeschooling with Rob Reich. Rob was kind enough to give me your URL, so I am posting a link to that debate here. You are welcome to come there, or, I would be happy to respond to any points you have here. I would prefer not to redo the entire debate here. Here is the link: http://chn.proboards13.com/index.cgi?board=CHNFreedomForum&action=display&num=1071957143

By: Byron Harrison

Byron Harrison — Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:42:27 +0000

In our research centre we have perhaps 70 home school children in a research population of about 3000 children. The overall impressions are that the Homer children are significantly more articulate in the presence of adults and, in a recent survey, actually outperformed their Normal-school children in 16 out 18 aspects of literacy. Interviewing those homers who have gone on to University showed that in the first year many of the Homers were shocked by the poor levels of general knowledge of the Normals. I do however have a group of Homers who, for a range of reasons, would have been a challenge in any classroom. These children are at serious risk of never getting appropriate teaching. Parents of Homers cry out for standards by which they can guage their childrens progress. We have released our diagnostic software without charge to try and help but Homers who are struggling need support which kick-in as soon as they are identified as being at-risk.

By: Lawrence Krubner

Lawrence Krubner — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:51:46 +0000

By the way, I’ve a weblog where I write of school vouchers, and, mostly, I like to post people’s writing of their own experience, pro and con, with private and public schools. If you don’t have a weblog but would like to post something in public, send it to me and I’ll be happy to post it. My edu-blog is here: http://freetheschools.typepad.com/free_the_schools/

By: Chris Bertram

Chris Bertram — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:17:49 +0000

Tim, you’ll find such arguments in Swift’s book (linked to in the main post) when he discusses selection. Actually, he canvasses a range of arguments both pro and con.

By: Tim Haas

Tim Haas — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:08:02 +0000

Sorry—it was very late last night when I posted the above comment and it came off as much more belligerent than I intended. Ultimately what I’m asking for is a pointer to a book or two that would help me understand the arguments behind the belief that society suffers if kids with exceptional abilities are separated from peers of lesser abilities and allowed to progress at their own, accerelated pace.

By: Tim Haas

Tim Haas — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:04:10 +0000

In an ideal world, people would finally stop rendering their premises meaningless with the introductory phrase “in an ideal world” … A question for the egalitarians (communitarians?) taking part in the discussion—why do you believe that society is better served by pulling the outliers down to the mean (“… the damage done to the rest of the children when the resource-richest kids get pulled out …”)?

By: Darby

Darby — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:39:31 +0000

I’ll second Daryl’s “fascinating”! As a distinctly liberal-leaning, non-religiously affiliated, homeschool parent, this conversation has been an eye opener! Last week I rattled on a bit re my opinions on the rights of the individual versus the interest of the government here. So, I won’t try to say all that again. But in general I think that, given people aren’t neat little widgets who can be programmed to respond in a predictable way, that having a wide range of choice in schooling is best. I have one child in public, and one being homeschooled. As far as I can see, each option is the best option for each child at this particular moment in time. There’s no reason why choosing one option now, should mean you have to completely reject the other. And homeschooling my son does NOT mean society is losing out on anything. There are plenty of other children in the public school who contribute just as much (or more!) to their classrooms as my son ever did. And I volunteer at my dd’s school, and for three different charities, and I’m on the executive of two different advocacy organizations, one of which is quite large. I think I’m ‘giving back’ enough! As for diversity training… my son and I walk everywhere and take the public bus (no car). He takes swimming at the Jewish community center (though we’re not Jewish), he regularly visits museums and libraries and galleries and such, and he’s in Scouts. He also plays with the children on our street (who are a pretty diverse bunch!) without me anywhere in sight. We talk to strangers. We explore the city. I suspect he gets far more “diversity” in his life than he ever would at his old public school!

By: Andrea

Andrea — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:38:18 +0000

Homeschooler does not always equal right wing religious conservative. I’m a liberal and I homeschool. I want my daughter to retain her freedom, her privacy, her creativity and her passions. I don’t want her dumbed down to the lowest common denominator in any classroom setting. I want her to think for herself instead of being indoctrinated by the government thought police that run the public schools. Even if I didn’t care about any of the above, today’s Zero Tolerance policies are more than any sane person could accept and there is no way I’ll sign her up for that kind of potential abuse.

By: Daryl Cobranchi

Daryl Cobranchi — Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:08:34 +0000

A fascinating discussion- Rob Reich has a paper that covers many of these issues (http://www.californiahomeschool.net/legis/testboundaries.pdf ). As a libertarian homeschooling parent, I rarely find myself in agreement with him but y’all might.

By: Chris Bertram

Chris Bertram — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:38:24 +0000

Decnavda, I’m running out the door to catch a train, but the answer to your point 1 is found in Rawls’s essay “The Basic Liberties and their Priority”, in PL, but licensed as the definitive answer on this question in the preface to the revised ed. of TJ.

By: Invisible Adjunct

Invisible Adjunct — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:15:33 +0000

“As far as I know, the schools never ran well without a lot of volunteer labor – some of it provided by the Bowling Together style o’ social status, lots and lots of it provided by women too upper-class to work, some of it probably left over from Settlement House uplift.” Seems to me that homeschooling also requires a good deal of unpaid labor by women. Not saying there aren’t fathers who homeschool, but the homeschoolers I’ve come across are mothers (most in a two-parent home with a male breadwinner).

By: Decnavda

Decnavda — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:05:30 +0000

“On a picky Rawls-related point, Decnava’s pointing to the priority of liberty won’t really do, because what gets priority is not liberty as such but the basic liberties . So we need an argument that establishes which rights parents have over their children are among those liberties, how those rights are to be construed and so on.” 1. What is the difference between “liberty as such” and “the basic liberties”? If you are suggesting that I am confusing negative and positive conceptions of liberty, I do not think so. I think I am adressing basic liberties: How do you balance the child’s basic liberty interest in an education with the parent’s basic liberty interest in raising their own child? 2. Suggesting that we need an argument that establishes what rights parents have over their children seems to be saying that I cannot point to the priority of liberty without first establishing that parents have this liberty. That would be valid if I suggested the priority of liberty as an ANSWER, but I proposed it as a PRESUMPTION: In the absence of such arguments, we must presume greater individual freedoms than lesser. 3. I cannot speak to the PL Rawls, as I have not read that, but the more I think about the ToJ appraoch, the more it seems to favor allowing home schooling. If I am sitting in the original position behind the viel of ignorance and do not know what my conception of the good, either as a student or a parent, and I want the best possible outcome were I to be in the least edvantaged situation, the last system I would devise would be one that would allow majories to impose their conception of the good on minorities without being able to opt out. If you frame the question as pitting the parent’s conception of the good against the child’s conception or right to develop their own conception, then according to the differnece principle you would devise a system to advantage the children. But to solve this delima by forcing children into a system that by deffinition imposes the majority’s conception of the good because it is run by the majority is to appeal to utilitarianism for a solution rather than the difference principle.

By: James

James — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:19:42 +0000

Harry – my reference to socalism was a reference to the comunist style of teaching. A format that placed dedication to the state as must learn subject matter. The concept that the state knows best is allued to in your comment . “…though it is entirely legitimate for it to provide alternatives to parental indoctrination”. In this statement it is implied the state (through schools) both determines what is indoctrination and what is correct teaching. There is a finacial arguement around home-schooling. Many districts only count attending students when determining funding of public schools. The California school district made a move to effectivly outlaw home-schools based on this reason. How much of the resistance to home-schooling is based on fincial concerns for public schools?

By: clew

clew — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:35:15 +0000

25 active parents (25 families?) would be an effective bloc in the PTAs of most schools I was in. Don’t know now, as I tutor kids directly, not through the schools. As far as I know, the schools never ran well without a lot of volunteer labor – some of it provided by the Bowling Together style o’ social status, lots and lots of it provided by women too upper-class to work, some of it probably left over from Settlement House uplift. We must all hang together, or surely we will all hang separately.