Comments on: Eminem in the NYR

By: Seth Edenbaum

Seth Edenbaum — Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:39:16 +0000

Dr Dre makes the beats and samples for Eminem. Eminem writes the words. 50 Cent is not Eminem’s protégé. They are both protégés if that’s the word of Dre. The homosexual subtext of the Eminem/Dre collaboration, as described in the lyrics, is so thick you could cut it with a razor blade. The word on the street- and this is old- is that they’re lovers. And you know who’s the top in that relationship. Eminem has black street cred and is not only a crossover. It’s at silly to say he’s a copycat as it is to say it about Elvis. Racism helped both without either of them being racist -or lightweights. Eminem gets press, including the NYR and here, because he’s white. And he’s good. But he’s not the be all and end all of Hip Hop or even Gansta Rap. And it’s interesting, but to be expected, that the other references made here are to De La Soul and Tribe called Quest, middle class rappers. And here we go again with the moral condemnation of the angry working class. But this is capitalism, and rhyme pays.

By: Sue

Sue — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:51:12 +0000

You have got to be kidding me. Do you actually listen to his music?… The mind boggles. It truly astonishes me… Why thank you so much for turning a somewhat interesting discussion into something much less friendly. “And why is anguish any less serious if it is personal rather than sociological? Would anyone apply these standards to works of art that were not from marginalized communities? I mean, does anyone complain that Petrarch’s anguish was personal rather than society-wide? “ It isn’t less serious for the person suffering, but it is regularly considered less interesting by other people. Of course, another factor is whether the personal connects with the larger, often religious, historical, culturally-bound, sociological, musings on death or family that touch us all. This is especially true for works of art outside pop music. For example, Byron’s poetry is a gorgeous language sound game, but since much of it is light and dealing with either sex or frustrated romance, you find it much less popular for serious analysis than, say, Keats or Wordsworth. Presumably you don’t really think Petrarch was writing about his dating experiences, it was personal, surely, but a personal quest for greater knowledge and a vehicle for musing on the human condition in general, coming to terms with death and nature and his relations to them. I never meant to imply that Eminem has no talent or wrote only one song, or whatever insult you wrongly attribute to me. His personal expressions are when he puts into words the pain of one or another character that as part of its dramatic construction, is unable to express its own pain. That is tragic, but it’s not exactly new to me – I know young men like this, only in real life they often express their pain when drunk. Other musicians express it for themselves, and other artists. The rather overrated Bret Easton Ellis has such characters, and they too act like your average suburban teenager, with iron ic-reflective capacities. He is overrated though non-marginalized because, as one reviewer wrote, we’ve heard it all before in freshman writing classes throughout the land – better constructed but not new. Look, the conversation here has turned into a battle for alpha status, as the best critic, or hippest pop-cultural analyst. All I said was, his form exceeds its content. If Eminem ever feels the urge to expand his horizons, or for that matter, listens to some Gil Scott-Heron, the genre will be better for it. He might even turn into a happier, more stable person as well. These aren’t insults, you know, it’s praise.

By: msg

msg — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:56:03 +0000

Kevin— I’ll wager any amount you name Mr. Berry was ‘told’ after the act of creation to alter the word ‘democrat’. That would be the point there,it isn’t wordplay, it’s a fortuitously available substitution. His poetry astonishes for how joined it is, a basic universal vocabulary seamlessly fitted to universal experience. That ‘diplomat’ don’t scan. To call ‘Brown Eyed Handsome Man’ sly is to indict whatever beverage you’re consuming these days. The Mann Act was used to nail him, he was harrassed from one end of the country to the other the bigger he got, and the context, the reason that’s important, is he was probably the one folk-poet of the mid 20th century with a wide-open line to the heart of the zeitgeist. It was entirely appropriate of Carl Sagan to send ‘Johnny B. Goode’ out into the Big Unknown, it’s a perfect work, deep and ephemeral, 3-minutes of profoundly accurate human “I Am”. We know him for what he managed to accomplish under the weight of all that repression, we’ll never know what he might have done without it.

By: KevinNYC

KevinNYC — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:04:51 +0000

As to Chuck Berry. Yes, Brown-eyed, Handsome Man is pretty sly. However, the Southern Diplomat part means exactly what? Berry had a history of pretty playful with language when it fit the rhythm of his lyrics. In Promised Land he writes Workin’ on a T-bone steak a la carte Flying over to the Golden State; The pilot told me in thirteen minutes We’d be headin’ in the terminal gate. He pronounces it a-la-cartie and not a-la-cart. For one, it’s funny. For two it flows much better into the next line. Where the hard sounds of cart would stop the line short. As to Eminem, I don’t think you can deny his talent. People here are talking about him like he’s MC Serch or Prime Minister Pete Nice. Bah, they get the gasface.

By: Privileged suburban girl

Privileged suburban girl — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:37:42 +0000

“to priveleged suburban girl: you’re being herded by midlevel critics? but i thought you had your own mind, your own opinions – just like most people with any sense” Sure I do. I just dislike being told that I’m either skittish, deaf or uninformed if I can’t appreciate the (so called) edge that Eminem has. You know “Stan” was a good song. Just not as good as people say. He’s pop and he’s even decent (though his views sometimes bother me – but that personal). I even liked a few of his songs but overall I find little to substantiate the overwhelming praise he gets. He’s neither as good a lyricist as people say nor as innovative with sound. For example “Stan”’s sound relies heavily on sampled portions. Those were written by someone else. The lyrics are a really good attempt at self expression and social commentary. IMO it is rather shallow attempt, personal insight notwithstanding. I’m not getting into a who is better war. I’ve heard better hiphop and rap artists. There are better lyricists. I’ve heard better spoken word poets (which is a medium that really blends with rap at certain points). It is out there. My focus is not fans but critics. I’m rather sad and annoyed that critics aren’t doing their job – and Eminem is not the only example. This is not one lone critic who simply likes Eminem. This is an example of a cultural trend. A critic’s job is not to parrot what the corporations tell them. It is to hunt out the best artists and tell us who they are. I don’t have all day to listen to music and all night to go to clubs and listen to DJs and singers. That is what critics are for.

By: JoeF

JoeF — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 04:23:41 +0000

A few people have suggested that he’s a mediocre rapper. It amazes me when people suggest Eminem has no talent. Wether or not you like rap, his ability to cleverly twist the English language and the speed and smoothness of his delivery are both incredibly rare. His first album was spotty, and lacked the maturity of his second and third albums. Those two, plus the three songs he did for the 8 Mile sound track, rank among the best albums of the last decade, and will still be standing strong twenty years from now. To suggest he only has one sound, you need to listen to White America, Cleaning out My Closet, and Square Dance, all from The Eminem Show. Those three songs are most certainly not based on the “same sound”.

By: drapetomaniac

drapetomaniac — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 03:22:21 +0000

But he has NOTHING to say. You have got to be kidding me. Do you actually listen to his music? You can find it uninteresting or objectionable, I suppose, but how can you miss existence of the actual subjects of his songs—not just in obvious songs like “White America” or “Stan” but even in a battle track like “Go to Sleep” has a point to make, rather than just being an excuse for lyrical riffs. His were the first internal rhymes that I could appreciate as legitimate (not inadequate “real” rhymes). The mind boggles. It truly astonishes me that someone can complain that Eminem hasn’t the achievements of high art, and then admit to not being able to appreciate internal rhyme until hearing Eminem. But his anguish and alienation are personal, not society-wide, which means that, in a very sad way, racism for him is a metaphor for his troubled (and prolonged) adolescent rages. How pray tell do you argue that “If I had” is not a society wide anguish? And why is anguish any less serious if it is personal rather than sociological? Would anyone apply these standards to works of art that were not from marginalized communities? I mean, does anyone complain that Petrarch’s anguish was personal rather than society-wide? And where is racism a metaphor in Eminem’s work? References?

By: sue

sue — Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:27:28 +0000

How about a slightly different line: Eminem clearly has some skill with placement of words, sounds and rhythms. But he has NOTHING to say And clearly finds it frustrating to have tumultuous, violent emotions and no content through which to express and resolve them. Can you imagine what someone with ideas but lousy expression could do with Eminem’s talent? Can you imagine what he might have become if someone early on had gotten him excited about some ideas that weren’t shown on MTV? Something like, oh, I dunno, Shakespeare or William S. Burroughs, Wallace Stevens? Someone mentioned Oscar Wilde – what if a thirteen-year-old Marshall had been handed “The Ballad of Reading Gaol”? (or science fiction or adventure stories or museums or craftsmanship…) His were the first internal rhymes that I could appreciate as legitimate (not inadequate “real” rhymes). And I had some very good English teachers. But his anguish and alienation are personal, not society-wide, which means that, in a very sad way, racism for him is a metaphor for his troubled (and prolonged) adolescent rages. Whether you call it irony or self-mockery, it’s rage that he plays at turning inward and outward. And yes, the outward version troubles me, even though society doesn’t need his help to be misogynistic and homophobic. All that talent, skill at managing his image and career, but whenever I think of what he could do, and hasn’t (yet) I feel very sad.

By: bobbie

bobbie — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:49:22 +0000

to return to the beginning, i don’t really think that many people really deem eminem as particularly “authentic”, at least no more authentic that most kids starting out. and i do think o’hagan’s view of authenticity is blurred and selective. and to priveleged suburban girl: you’re being herded by midlevel critics? but i thought you had your own mind, your own opinions – just like most people with any sense. as far as i’m concerned, i’m with keith. in historical terms, eminem’s not likely to be remembered on a par with shakespeare (and is anybody really suggesting that?). he’s not much of a social commentator, he’s not much of a musician, but his ear and his ability to surprise are two of the things that make him one of the best crop of musical wordsmiths of this generation. the fact that he combines whatever skill he has makes him much more important than the continual stream of dire popular music out there (and i would contest that only by promoting those who are good will you discover if they have the potential to become great). if he’s inferior product, he’s inferior product that captures a certain spirit of the time, which makes him as valuable as many other revered pop acts over the past 50 years. feel free to be unimpressed, it’s your right, but i’d challenge you to come up with anyone around now who was leagues ahead.

By: Privliged Suburban Girl

Privliged Suburban Girl — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:08:40 +0000

” Eminem, as far as I can tell, is praised as an exceptional wordsmith. Which he is.” I would disagree. He’s good enough. In my opinion he’s far from exceptional. Though I have to admit sometimes he does rise to levels that surprise me. I can’t claim any credibility on the musical side. I’m simply unimpressed. It’s not fans that annoy me (or even anti fans). It’s a fan’s job to be slavishly devoted and irrational. What bothers me are fanish reviews by midlevel journalists who shoot their mouths off and can’t be bothered to do any research.

By: msg

msg — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:58:59 +0000

Points that will get me nowhere: Elvis was ‘high yella’ at least visually if not genetically, and some of that was pretty darn redskin-looking. Muddy and the Wolf were both genetic ‘Native Americans’ to a strong degree. Chuck Berry’s Blackness was tempered in the fire of his equal-parts ‘Indian’ heritage. But these distinctions are too outside the pale. Two of Mr. Berry’s more overtly subtle moves, which lose a lot of their power and depth this far from their contemporary context: The entire song ‘Brown- Eyed Handsome Man’ and the line in ‘Nadine’ where he says: ‘Movin thru the traffic tryin’ a get ta where she’s at an I was campaign shoutin’ like a Southern Diplomat’ Diplomats don’t run for office. Southern Democrats were notorious for their rhetoric and bombast, and for their political strength in the world of mid-50’s southern America. See Keith Richards’ beautiful homage to Mr. Berry (Taylor Hackford dir.) for more insight into a complex American genius. Listen to Howlin’ Wolf sing ‘Natchez Burning’. And while we’re at it, put on some Hound Dog Taylor, esp. ‘Gimme Back My Wig’. eminem’s movie ‘8 Mile’ laid it all out, he’s an artist and a good one.

By: Keith M Ellis

Keith M Ellis — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:42:00 +0000

“But that is in the area where Eminem garners the most praise. Remixing and musical style are not his strengths.” No, Eminem, as far as I can tell, is praised as an exceptional wordsmith. Which he is. Maybe a few critics and others have tried to exagerate his “social commentary” value because that’s the only standard by which they know how to value art. Or at least justify it. But most praise I’ve heard basically takes the form: “Wow. Some of what he does is genius.” When I say “good”, that’s no small compliment from me since I think most pop art is crap. As a young musician, I only listened to technical ability and craft in music, and evaluated it on that basis. Then I grew out of that phase. Now I listen for what I intuit as authentic, original artistic expression; with style, technique, and craft adding bonus points. I don’t doubt that there’s thirty underplayed or unknown artists out there with as much or greater talent than Eminem…that’s the way of things. The problem with this debate is that the majority of the people involved in it have an emotional stake in either maximizing or minimizing Eminem’s artistic merit. They’re fans, and fans never have a sense of proportion; or they’re anti-fans, who also don’t have a sense of proportion.

By: KevinNYC

KevinNYC — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:15:14 +0000

I used sales not as yardstick for merit, but to show that Eminem is a phenomenon. Editor’s are reacting to that phenomenon. He’s the most significant hip-hop artist of the past five years. It’s also the time when hip-hop is the dominant form or popular music which was not the case with De La Soul or Tribe Called Quest. High end white press payed much less attention to hip hop then. Hip-hop was a smaller part of the culture then.

By: Privliged suburban girl

Privliged suburban girl — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:13:17 +0000

“Judged on the “wry social commentary” basis, I don’t think he fairs that well. But a lot of great artists don’t. I am so bored with the idea that art is the equivalent of social activism.?” But that is in the area where Eminem garners the most praise. Remixing and musical style are not his strengths. He’s compitent but not great. He’s a pop musician. Nothing more. Just enough edge to worry parents and titlate his audience without actually saying anything worth listening to. Much like Madonna, his strength is in allowing his own image to play off itself and using his fame as a tool. Andy Warhol used his fame to create art. Eminem uses it to sell records. Having something to say doesn’t have to be about social activism. You can speak about how much you love twinkies or your grandmother. Just try to say something that makes others think – about anything. “Eminem: I don’t necessarily like what he does, but I can tell it’s good. Too many people equate their personal preference and enjoyment with artistic quality.” Good is such an ordinary standard. My banana bread is good (not great – just good.) I bring it to parties and give it as gifts. I’m not going to win state fair awards or write a cookbook. I don’t see why anyone should be heeping praise on someone merely for being ‘good’. We should be fostering the talents of those who will become great. We should be listening to (or at least talking about) the T. Monks of rap. I’m sick of midlevel critics telling me mediocre stuff is genius just because they can’t be bothered to do any research. I’m sick of being herded like a sheep.

By: Keith M Ellis

Keith M Ellis — Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:11:39 +0000

“Sad that his limp irony is what passes for wry social commentary these days. That says more than anything.” Eminem is not an intellectual. His irony is the vulgar irony of the times, nothing more and nothing less. Judged on the “wry social commentary” basis, I don’t think he fairs that well. But a lot of great artists don’t. I am so bored with the idea that art is the equivalent of social activism. Eminem is a real talent simply because he is. He has a distinctive artistic “voice”, he does some things in original and unique ways, and he often does them with a great deal of craft. Not to mention that he seems to do all this effortlessly. Too effortlessly, really, as the things he’s good at come too easily for him. And he pretty much sucks at all the things he’s not good at, both as an artist and a human being. I don’t really have a horse in this race. At the age of 39, I long ago stopped caring about pop music as if it were the center of our culture and essential to my identity. My (in my opinion) amusing inversive quote above expresses my opinion of Eminem: I don’t necessarily like what he does, but I can tell it’s good. Too many people equate their personal preference and enjoyment with artistic quality.