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	<title>Comments on: Solidarity and Hierarchy in Academic Job Markets</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Nasi Lemak</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7918</link>
		<dc:creator>Nasi Lemak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7918</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, damn, left this comment too late. Well, Nick, you&#039;re wrong, in a Crocodile Dundee sense: Oxford&#039;s not an inbreeder (Honestly. Among junior research fellowships and so forth there are actually quite a lot of non-Oxford people.) *Cambridge* is an inbreeder. I&#039;ve never heard of anyone getting a JRFship there who didn&#039;t already have a Cambridge connection, usually through being a graduate/undergraduate. And I spent two years there before fleeing, so I did meet quite a lot of JRFs. (I think there is some basic Oxford insecurity that means it wants to import good people from elsewhere to try to keep up, while that wonderful Cambridge insularity means they see no need to correspond with the rest of the world but merely wish to incubate the careers of their best and brightest.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, damn, left this comment too late. Well, Nick, you&#8217;re wrong, in a Crocodile Dundee sense: Oxford&#8217;s not an inbreeder (Honestly. Among junior research fellowships and so forth there are actually quite a lot of non-Oxford people.) *Cambridge* is an inbreeder. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never heard of anyone getting a JRFship there who didn&#8217;t already have a Cambridge connection, usually through being a graduate/undergraduate. </p>
<p>And I spent two years there before fleeing, so I did meet quite a lot of JRFs. </p>
<p>(I think there is some basic Oxford insecurity that means it wants to import good people from elsewhere to try to keep up, while that wonderful Cambridge insularity means they see no need to correspond with the rest of the world but merely wish to incubate the careers of their best and brightest.)</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7917</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s an intriguing paper, to which I really ought to devote more reading time than my early skimming.It should be said that this kind of structure was at least acknowledged by one of my tutors, who advised me, as an Oxford DPhil in English heading out to the US, to seek gainful employ with a &#039;good second-division university&#039;, based on the premise that the Ivy League tends to recruit talent from its own and its peers, work it into the ground without any hope of tenure, and turn bright-eyed academic hopefuls into bitter husks. By contrast, a junior position in the &#039;semi-periphery&#039; is considered a better place from which to launch one&#039;s academic career, with less of a rat-race and more space in which to expand.That&#039;s why I&#039;m a little surprised by the &#039;self-loop&#039; described in the paper, but it might be the case that there are better reasons for Class I graduates to head to Class I institutions.I&#039;m particularly intrigued by the &#039;inbreeding&#039; and &#039;outbreeding&#039; of academic staff: the notion that while &#039;feeder&#039; institutions don&#039;t like to hire their own for junior positions, they&#039;ll gladly send them out for &#039;seasoning&#039; and bring them back when tenure&#039;s at stake. That&#039;s less the case at Oxford (an inbreeder if ever there was one) but I can see the logic behind it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an intriguing paper, to which I really ought to devote more reading time than my early skimming.</p>
<p>It should be said that this kind of structure was at least acknowledged by one of my tutors, who advised me, as an Oxford DPhil in English heading out to the US, to seek gainful employ with a &#8216;good second-division university&#8217;, based on the premise that the Ivy League tends to recruit talent from its own and its peers, work it into the ground without any hope of tenure, and turn bright-eyed academic hopefuls into bitter husks. By contrast, a junior position in the &#8216;semi-periphery&#8217; is considered a better place from which to launch one&#8217;s academic career, with less of a rat-race and more space in which to expand.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m a little surprised by the &#8216;self-loop&#8217; described in the paper, but it might be the case that there are better reasons for Class I graduates to head to Class I institutions.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m particularly intrigued by the &#8216;inbreeding&#8217; and &#8216;outbreeding&#8217; of academic staff: the notion that while &#8216;feeder&#8217; institutions don&#8217;t like to hire their own for junior positions, they&#8217;ll gladly send them out for &#8216;seasoning&#8217; and bring them back when tenure&#8217;s at stake. That&#8217;s less the case at Oxford (an inbreeder if ever there was one) but I can see the logic behind it.</p>
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		<title>By: brayden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7916</link>
		<dc:creator>brayden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[For those of you without an institutional affiliation, Han has a link for the paper on his website.http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~skh/TR.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those of you without an institutional affiliation, Han has a link for the paper on his website.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~skh/TR.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~skh/TR.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Armature</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7915</link>
		<dc:creator>Armature</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW if you work for an institution that has a subscription to Elsevier journals, but don&#039;t have &lt;i&gt;Social Networks&lt;/i&gt; lying around your office, you can get the full PDF of Han&#039;s paper from here:&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/umdo&quot;&gt;http://tinyurl.com/umdo&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW if you work for an institution that has a subscription to Elsevier journals, but don&#8217;t have <i>Social Networks</i> lying around your office, you can get the full PDF of Han&#8217;s paper from here:</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/umdo">http://tinyurl.com/umdo</a></p>
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		<title>By: paul locasto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7914</link>
		<dc:creator>paul locasto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; The structure of careers in many sciences is even more hierarchically organized than the humanities and social sciences  the Postdoc journeyman stage is fully institutionalized, getting established is about builing a lab in a position to attract grants and so on.&lt;/i&gt;Yes I know it too well (being a post-doc myself). I might have read things wrong, but I was under the impression that the issue was how certain programs can be analysed from a &#039;tribal&#039; (i.e. Class I vs. Class II) perspective. There just seem to be more ways of bucking the &#039;class&#039; system in other disciplines (such as grants, publishing etc). You can get hired at Harvard and Stanford even if you come from a Class III school. Whereas in other (more theoretical? ) disciplines, if you did not graduate from an Ivy league school, you will not be hired by one. This of course is a wide generalization, but I wonder if the general point holds true. Anyhow, interesting article]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> The structure of careers in many sciences is even more hierarchically organized than the humanities and social sciences  the Postdoc journeyman stage is fully institutionalized, getting established is about builing a lab in a position to attract grants and so on.</i></p>
<p>Yes I know it too well (being a post-doc myself). I might have read things wrong, but I was under the impression that the issue was how certain programs can be analysed from a &#8216;tribal&#8217; (i.e. Class I vs. Class II) perspective. There just seem to be more ways of bucking the &#8216;class&#8217; system in other disciplines (such as grants, publishing etc). You can get hired at Harvard and Stanford even if you come from a Class III school. Whereas in other (more theoretical? ) disciplines, if you did not graduate from an Ivy league school, you will not be hired by one. This of course is a wide generalization, but I wonder if the general point holds true. Anyhow, interesting article</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7913</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I wonder what impact an analysis of non-humanities disciplines would have on this hypothesis. At issue is whether the humanities have bench-marks that allow them to behave as a functional market.&lt;/i&gt;It would be nice to think that somehow markets and scientific truth would be positively correlated, but I doubt it. The structure of careers in many sciences is even more hierarchically organized than the humanities and social sciences -- the Postdoc &quot;journeyman&quot; stage is fully institutionalized, getting established is about builing a lab in a position to attract grants and so on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I wonder what impact an analysis of non-humanities disciplines would have on this hypothesis. At issue is whether the humanities have bench-marks that allow them to behave as a functional market.</i></p>
<p>It would be nice to think that somehow markets and scientific truth would be positively correlated, but I doubt it. The structure of careers in many sciences is even more hierarchically organized than the humanities and social sciences &#8212; the Postdoc &#8220;journeyman&#8221; stage is fully institutionalized, getting established is about builing a lab in a position to attract grants and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: paul locasto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7912</link>
		<dc:creator>paul locasto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder what impact an analysis of non-humanities disciplines would have on this hypothesis. At issue is whether the humanities have bench-marks that allow them to behave as a functional market. As Dr. Castronova points out, how should one measure schools of thought which both have no &#039;aha moments&#039;?Relatedly, do applied disciplines where &#039;sucess&#039; can be measured at least in some forms independent from the system (i.e. schooling, theoretical background, what&#039;s &#039;hot&#039;) that produced them --function more like efficient systems?Furthermore, does this relate to the wide-spread downsizing of the humanities across academia in favor of more &quot;success-orientated&quot; (read: money-making)  disciplines?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what impact an analysis of non-humanities disciplines would have on this hypothesis. At issue is whether the humanities have bench-marks that allow them to behave as a functional market. As Dr. Castronova points out, how should one measure schools of thought which both have no &#8216;aha moments&#8217;?</p>
<p>Relatedly, do applied disciplines where &#8216;sucess&#8217; can be measured at least in some forms independent from the system (i.e. schooling, theoretical background, what&#8217;s &#8216;hot&#8217;) that produced them &#8211;function more like efficient systems?</p>
<p>Furthermore, does this relate to the wide-spread downsizing of the humanities across academia in favor of more &#8220;success-orientated&#8221; (read: money-making)  disciplines?</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7911</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7911</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;We at Berkeley do keep saying that there is a clear market failure on the used junior market, and that we ought to try to pick off people two or three years out who are “underplaced” and hire them…&lt;/i&gt;I keep sayin&#039; that &quot;sayin&#039; ain&#039;t doin&#039;&quot; but I never seems to do anythin&#039; about it!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We at Berkeley do keep saying that there is a clear market failure on the used junior market, and that we ought to try to pick off people two or three years out who are “underplaced” and hire them…</i></p>
<p>I keep sayin&#8217; that &#8220;sayin&#8217; ain&#8217;t doin&#8217;&#8221; but I never seems to do anythin&#8217; about it!</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Castronova</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7910</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Castronova</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It makes sense that a discipline more concerned with form than intellectual substance relies on arbitrary markers of quality to make personnel decisions. When the theories of both Smith&#039;s student and Miller&#039;s student have the same number of true &#039;aha&#039; moments in them (0), how can you tell them apart other than to note that Smith&#039;s program is ranked higher than Miller&#039;s?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes sense that a discipline more concerned with form than intellectual substance relies on arbitrary markers of quality to make personnel decisions. When the theories of both Smith&#8217;s student and Miller&#8217;s student have the same number of true &#8216;aha&#8217; moments in them (0), how can you tell them apart other than to note that Smith&#8217;s program is ranked higher than Miller&#8217;s?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad DeLong</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7909</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad DeLong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7909</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, our students go out early--way too early--before they&#039;ve finished even one article. They&#039;re bright young things sold on the basis of potential.We at Berkeley do keep saying that there is a clear market failure on the used junior market, and that we ought to try to pick off people two or three years out who are &quot;underplaced&quot; and hire them...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, our students go out early&#8211;way too early&#8211;before they&#8217;ve finished even one article. They&#8217;re bright young things sold on the basis of potential.</p>
<p>We at Berkeley do keep saying that there is a clear market failure on the used junior market, and that we ought to try to pick off people two or three years out who are &#8220;underplaced&#8221; and hire them&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7908</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7908</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Economics scores highest on all exchange-based measures of hierarchy and solidarity.&lt;/i&gt;Let the rationalisations begin ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Economics scores highest on all exchange-based measures of hierarchy and solidarity.</i></p>
<p>Let the rationalisations begin &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: markus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2003/11/11/solidarity-and-hierarchy-in-academic-job-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-7907</link>
		<dc:creator>markus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=563#comment-7907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[is this the reason why studying something obscure and thereby creating a monopoly doesn&#039;t work? ;) Besides, it seems to prove that academia is inherently hostile to the free market, so no wonder there&#039;s all those liberals in there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is this the reason why studying something obscure and thereby creating a monopoly doesn&#8217;t work? ;)<br />
Besides, it seems to prove that academia is inherently hostile to the free market, so no wonder there&#8217;s all those liberals in there.</p>
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