Comments on: Iraq, Saddam and 9/11 http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:55:47 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Anthony http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10783 Anthony Tue, 16 Dec 2003 06:35:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10783 This reminds me of my grandmother's suggestion prior to our invasion: get Saddam to consent to withdraw his regime for power, allowing international groups to step in and rehabilitate the nation, in exchange for which he would be left in peace to live on some remote island writing poetry. Mind you, my grandmother is 90 years old and very conservative (when her opinions are coherent enough). This reminds me of my grandmother’s suggestion prior to our invasion: get Saddam to consent to withdraw his regime for power, allowing international groups to step in and rehabilitate the nation, in exchange for which he would be left in peace to live on some remote island writing poetry. Mind you, my grandmother is 90 years old and very conservative (when her opinions are coherent enough).

]]> By: The Sanity Inspector http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10782 The Sanity Inspector Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:58:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10782 He'd really be in for it if he were to be tried in the U.S. He'd be looking at twelve to fifteen minimum, *zero* chance of parole, and all interviews and commencement addresses at California universities delivered by transcript only! He’d really be in for it if he were to be tried in the U.S. He’d be looking at twelve to fifteen minimum, zero chance of parole, and all interviews and commencement addresses at California universities delivered by transcript only!

]]> By: TomD http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10781 TomD Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:02:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10781 Ah, the new McCarthyism rearing its head. If you don't shout "Hooray for Bush's Wonderful Success!" whenever drzin tells you to, you are objectively a Saddam-lover. Stunning! Ah, the new McCarthyism rearing its head. If you don’t shout “Hooray for Bush’s Wonderful Success!” whenever drzin tells you to, you are objectively a Saddam-lover. Stunning!

]]> By: Howard Shaw http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10780 Howard Shaw Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:10:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10780 There may not be a direct connection between Saddam & 9/11 but I don't think anyone disputes that Saddam was a sponsor of terrorism in other countries. For example, his "gifts" to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. There may not be a direct connection between Saddam & 9/11 but I don’t think anyone disputes that Saddam was a sponsor of terrorism in other countries. For example, his “gifts” to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.

]]> By: leftsucks http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10779 leftsucks Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:43:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10779 Let's see if I have this straight: 1) If there is no evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq, then no connection exists. 2) If there *IS* evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq, it cannot be real, and thus no connection exists. Stunning. Let’s see if I have this straight: 1) If there is no evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq, then no connection exists. 2) If there IS evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq, it cannot be real, and thus no connection exists. Stunning.

]]> By: DrZin http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10778 DrZin Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:16:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10778 Well, I should think that the ultimate demise of a savage regime that is an affront to EVERYTHING for which you so-called "progressives" stand would be a matter of unmasked jubilation. I noticed that a few expressed unmitigated gratitude, but for the rest, you may as well admit it: you would have preferred another decade of Hussein's slaughter waiting for your corrupt U.N. to do something than for President Bush to be successful. Speaking of the U.N.: "Whether or not the UN aided in his capture, the charges against him are offenses against humanity as a whole." The United Nations is an offense to humanity as a whole; it needs to go the way of the Iraqi Baathists. A new "United Democratic Nations" organization, in which corrupt despots are not treated to unearned democratic legitimacy would be an extremely fitting alternative. And speaking of unearned legitimacy, I think the French government could be considered exempt from any veto authority in the UDN. Well, I should think that the ultimate demise of a savage regime that is an affront to EVERYTHING for which you so-called “progressives” stand would be a matter of unmasked jubilation. I noticed that a few expressed unmitigated gratitude, but for the rest, you may as well admit it: you would have preferred another decade of Hussein’s slaughter waiting for your corrupt U.N. to do something than for President Bush to be successful. Speaking of the U.N.: “Whether or not the UN aided in his capture, the charges against him are offenses against humanity as a whole.” The United Nations is an offense to humanity as a whole; it needs to go the way of the Iraqi Baathists. A new “United Democratic Nations” organization, in which corrupt despots are not treated to unearned democratic legitimacy would be an extremely fitting alternative. And speaking of unearned legitimacy, I think the French government could be considered exempt from any veto authority in the UDN.

]]> By: Anthony http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10777 Anthony Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:55:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10777 <i>Why not the UN? - well, because the UN didn’t help capture him, & besides, who trusts the UN? The Hague? - I don’t think so, given our own resistence to their claimed jurisdiction. Military trial? - maybe, but I’m not sure that there are any military charges that can be brought against SH. The man was a tyrannical murdering dictator.</i> Whether or not the UN aided in his capture, the charges against him are offenses against humanity as a whole. I don't think this should undermine the fact that he does need to answer to those who suffered under him for his actions, but we do need to hold ourselves to the same human standards in sentencing him as we hold him to while condemning him. Why not the UN? – well, because the UN didn’t help capture him, & besides, who trusts the UN? The Hague? – I don’t think so, given our own resistence to their claimed jurisdiction. Military trial? – maybe, but I’m not sure that there are any military charges that can be brought against SH. The man was a tyrannical murdering dictator. Whether or not the UN aided in his capture, the charges against him are offenses against humanity as a whole. I don’t think this should undermine the fact that he does need to answer to those who suffered under him for his actions, but we do need to hold ourselves to the same human standards in sentencing him as we hold him to while condemning him.

]]> By: Jon H http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10776 Jon H Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:49:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10776 Jim Henley takes apart the Torygraph <a href="http://www.highclearing.com/archivesuo/week_2003_12_14.html#004800">here</a>. What's amusing is that the Abu Nidal story is reported by the same guy, Con Coughlin, who in 2002 reported a story about Abu Nidal which probably contradicts the new story. I propose he change his name to Credulous Coughlin by deed poll. Jim Henley takes apart the Torygraph here. What’s amusing is that the Abu Nidal story is reported by the same guy, Con Coughlin, who in 2002 reported a story about Abu Nidal which probably contradicts the new story. I propose he change his name to Credulous Coughlin by deed poll.

]]> By: Dell Adams http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10775 Dell Adams Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:48:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10775 What the last three commenters said. But that Saddam would end up in a "shouting match" with Adnan Pachachi (according to <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3712145/">the Newsweek story</a>) is something I just don't understand. Why are they even on speaking terms? What the last three commenters said. But that Saddam would end up in a “shouting match” with Adnan Pachachi (according to the Newsweek story) is something I just don’t understand. Why are they even on speaking terms?

]]> By: harmon http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10774 harmon Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:21:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10774 Anyone who thinks that the Bush administration preferred SH dead rather than alive is not thinking it through. SH is more valuable alive than dead. For one thing, it's harder to convince people that a dead body was SH than it is to show them a live SH being deliced and tonsilled. For another, SH will talk - I don't even think he will need to be made to talk. He's probably a psychopath, & will need to brag about what he did. The problem will be to figure out how much of what he says is true. Plus, the mere fact that we have him & he might talk will cause a good deal of disruption to the terrorists. And don't forget, he'll tell us where he hid the money that can be used to pay the debts he ran up, which could be the first step in repudiating the debts as those of Iraq and establishing them as those of SH. It will be interesting to see what they do with him. He will be kept in the traditional undisclosed location for a while, I think. I expect he'll be handed over to the Iraqis some time next spring or summer. Why not the UN? - well, because the UN didn't help capture him, & besides, who trusts the UN? The Hague? - I don't think so, given our own resistence to their claimed jurisdiction. Military trial? - maybe, but I'm not sure that there are any military charges that can be brought against SH. The man was a tyrannical murdering dictator, and we ought to hand him over to his victims to be given a fair trial, and then hung. Anyone who thinks that the Bush administration preferred SH dead rather than alive is not thinking it through. SH is more valuable alive than dead. For one thing, it’s harder to convince people that a dead body was SH than it is to show them a live SH being deliced and tonsilled. For another, SH will talk – I don’t even think he will need to be made to talk. He’s probably a psychopath, & will need to brag about what he did. The problem will be to figure out how much of what he says is true. Plus, the mere fact that we have him & he might talk will cause a good deal of disruption to the terrorists. And don’t forget, he’ll tell us where he hid the money that can be used to pay the debts he ran up, which could be the first step in repudiating the debts as those of Iraq and establishing them as those of SH. It will be interesting to see what they do with him. He will be kept in the traditional undisclosed location for a while, I think. I expect he’ll be handed over to the Iraqis some time next spring or summer. Why not the UN? – well, because the UN didn’t help capture him, & besides, who trusts the UN? The Hague? – I don’t think so, given our own resistence to their claimed jurisdiction. Military trial? – maybe, but I’m not sure that there are any military charges that can be brought against SH. The man was a tyrannical murdering dictator, and we ought to hand him over to his victims to be given a fair trial, and then hung.

]]> By: Zizka http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10773 Zizka Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:44:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10773 Considering that Saddam doesn't know about anything except his own defunct regime, it's hard to think what crucial information he's supposed to have. The quick speculation about torturing him is also hard to understand. One of the problems with torture, ethics aside and example aside, is the "whatever you say" problem. I'm sure that with torture we can get Saddam to say that Mohammed Atta was his man, but how reliable will that information be? Considering that Saddam doesn’t know about anything except his own defunct regime, it’s hard to think what crucial information he’s supposed to have. The quick speculation about torturing him is also hard to understand. One of the problems with torture, ethics aside and example aside, is the “whatever you say” problem. I’m sure that with torture we can get Saddam to say that Mohammed Atta was his man, but how reliable will that information be?

]]> By: chun the unavoidable http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10772 chun the unavoidable Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:06:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10772 <p>I probably don't have to point this out, but torturing Hussein would not only yield no useful information, it would make those of us responsible for it complicit in the same type of crime for which he is universally reviled. <p>You are closer to the animal responsible for torturing hundreds of thousands if you torture one than you are to the human. You'd probably want to gnaw your leg to get out of the trap, but we humans will wait until the trapper comes along to remove a threat to our kind. Now put your hand in this torture-box.

I probably don’t have to point this out, but torturing Hussein would not only yield no useful information, it would make those of us responsible for it complicit in the same type of crime for which he is universally reviled.

You are closer to the animal responsible for torturing hundreds of thousands if you torture one than you are to the human. You’d probably want to gnaw your leg to get out of the trap, but we humans will wait until the trapper comes along to remove a threat to our kind. Now put your hand in this torture-box.

]]> By: jdsm http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10771 jdsm Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:19:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10771 Hooray! I don't share Keith Ellis's scepticism regarding what goes on from here. Firstly, Tony Blair has already said the Iraqi people would get to try him (which to be fair Keith may not have known about). On the second point I actually think the US and Britain will be chuffed that Hussein was caught alive. Even the most rabid anti-war folk are glad this has happened and the longer his trial and incarceration last, the fresher this victory will seem in the eyes of all. Interesting moral quandry though. Given the kind of information he must have, is it right to torture him to get it (and I mean full on torture not sleep deprivation and a quick tickle)? Hooray! I don’t share Keith Ellis’s scepticism regarding what goes on from here. Firstly, Tony Blair has already said the Iraqi people would get to try him (which to be fair Keith may not have known about). On the second point I actually think the US and Britain will be chuffed that Hussein was caught alive. Even the most rabid anti-war folk are glad this has happened and the longer his trial and incarceration last, the fresher this victory will seem in the eyes of all. Interesting moral quandry though. Given the kind of information he must have, is it right to torture him to get it (and I mean full on torture not sleep deprivation and a quick tickle)?

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10770 Chris Bertram Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:34:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10770 Pretty much exactly right Andrew. When I saw the Telegraph stuff this morning I was incredulous that they'd even print it. But yes, I do think that Saddam's capture is great news - and without qualification. Pretty much exactly right Andrew. When I saw the Telegraph stuff this morning I was incredulous that they’d even print it. But yes, I do think that Saddam’s capture is great news – and without qualification.

]]> By: Andrew Boucher http://crookedtimber.org/2003/12/14/iraq-saddam-and-911/comment-page-1/#comment-10769 Andrew Boucher Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:19:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=748#comment-10769 "Some people are going to start demanding that questions be answered now that #1 has been captured and is in custody." "Some people," I'm breathless. Just who are these people who are going to be *demanding* answers? By the way, maybe Chris was all set to write about 9/11 and then tagged on the beginning once he heard this morning's news. Otherwise, my mind spins if his first (second?) thought on hearing Saddam's capture is, he won't be charged for 9/11. Gosh, there would be no better evidence of the moral decline of the Left. (Mind you, I've just come from Harry's Place. Great stuff he writes there.) “Some people are going to start demanding that questions be answered now that #1 has been captured and is in custody.” “Some people,” I’m breathless. Just who are these people who are going to be demanding answers? By the way, maybe Chris was all set to write about 9/11 and then tagged on the beginning once he heard this morning’s news. Otherwise, my mind spins if his first (second?) thought on hearing Saddam’s capture is, he won’t be charged for 9/11. Gosh, there would be no better evidence of the moral decline of the Left. (Mind you, I’ve just come from Harry’s Place. Great stuff he writes there.)

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