Comments on: Return of MEChA

By: Sebastian Holsclaw

Sebastian Holsclaw — Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:25:40 +0000

“I’d say that demanding that MEChA expunge or white(?)wash its own history is exactly the sort of unreasonable expectation that they were formed to fight against. Do you think that everyone who believes in equal rights for blacks must denounce Malcolm X when prompted? Must all white people apologize for what they or their parents or grandparents believed in the ‘50s and earlier, whenever someone asks?” Do you notice that you shift the standards here? We start with Mecha chapters linking approvingly to a document which is promoting a racist ideology. Then you shift to talking about how unfair it would be to have to apologize for what their parents and grandparents believed. Ignoring the fact that in some contexts people are expected to just that, can’t we make an effective distinction between going out of your way to affirm a racist ideology and not apologizing for the past views of your ancestors? Peter, I’m not sure what you are trying to say about the Declaration of Independence. The quote you offer says that the contra to the rules of warfare among the British, the Indians which King George employed against the not yet united states didn’t distinguish between women, children and the infirm when fighting. I suspect you are objecting to the not so multiculturally-sensitive word ‘savages’. But that is just a guess, so I won’t bother arguing about it unless you confirm my suspicion. I also note that the response does not deny the translation of “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada”

By: Ted Barlow

Ted Barlow — Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:06:30 +0000

Paula- my mistake re: New Mexico State. I’ll correct it.

By: Paula

Paula — Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:20:46 +0000

As a mechista who answered one of the questions, let me say that not everyone was from New Mexico State. They sent it out to quite a few chapters and my understanding was that while most answers came from their chapter, some were from other members/chapters. I didn’t realize that the word “many” would be considerd to be “odd and slippery language.” However, in response, I didn’t use all or most because I didn’t want to speak on someone else’s behalf. I chose to say many because, of the mechistas I have met throughout the country, a great majority feel this was. Obviously having over 300 chapters makes it difficult for me to say all, as I have not met every mechista. Quite frankly I don’t think I’ve even met half the mechistas in the country.

By: Paula

Paula — Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:20:00 +0000

By: Charlie

Charlie — Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:55:06 +0000

The Map in question is the “Disturnell Map of 1847.” As stated this is the “Official map of the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo”

By: David Weman

David Weman — Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:12:51 +0000

“5. If you had to characterize the official attitude of MEChA on racial issues, what would you say? How would you characterize the attitude of the other members of your chapter towards white people? A. To many MEChistas, race is not an issue. Chicanismo is now more a state of mind rather than a state of being. Skin color, religion, sexuality, none of that is important.” Not ‘all’, not ‘most’. Why use such odd and slippery language?

By: Peter

Peter — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:16:01 +0000

Quick Quiz for the Mecha bashers: Which political document is this passage from, and should politicans associated with this document (or more, accurately, politicans who celebrate polticans associated with this document) be forced to renounce it? “HE has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.”

By: Steve

Steve — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:00:51 +0000

A quick Google search seems to suggest that Voz Fronteriza is largely associated with MeCHA by people who want to convince the world that MeCHA is a racist organization. Note that this editorial from the UCSD paper was clearly not written by a friend of MeCHA (he refers to the group as borderline racist), but it explicitly differentiates between MeCHA and Voz Fronteriza. This is same tactic that Orcinus called out—take a fringe group made up of Latinos and either simply attribute their actions to MeCHA or point out certain rhetorical tropes in common. (Orcinus was talking about attempts to blame MeCHA for anti-Semetic statements made by the unrelated hate group La Voz de Aztlan, but the technique is the same.) This technique seems about as informative as equating the NAACP with the Black Panthers or the Republican Party with the CCC, and it’s about as honest. There was a MeCHA chapter in my high school; I knew a couple people in it casually, and it never seemed like anything more than a social club for Latino kids who wanted to go to college. Maybe tamale-making and bake sales mask a sinister agenda, but I doubt it.

By: linden

linden — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:58:21 +0000

The US government was also classist and sexist at its founding since you couldn’t vote unless you were male, white and owned land. Undoubtedly, ted, I would be relieved if they didn’t write that article. It sounds positively horrific. In my experience, the content of student publications is usually approved and vetted by the group’s leadership as well as the rank and file. Your experience may differ but that was my college experience.

By: Ted Barlow

Ted Barlow — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:46:51 +0000

Linden, I have to disagree that any article printed in an official publication of an organization accurately reflects the wide acceptance of that opinion. However, I was curious because I hadn’t heard that story. So I looked up “Voz Fronteriza UCSD” and found their web page. They don’t seem to be affiliated with MEChA. They certainly don’t seem to be a MEChA publication. While both are Chicano student organizations, I was unable to find a mention of MEChA on the Voz Fronteriza page. Their webpage states that their staff is solely responsible for the opinions expressed within “Voz Fronteriza”. (I called their phone number to check, but it didn’t work.) It’s certainly possible that I’m mistaken, and that the loathesome “death of a migra pig” article in question can be associated with MEChA. But isn’t it also possible that the article in question is mistaken?

By: Mikhel

Mikhel — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:44:29 +0000

How is what I commented on a straw-man? Was the US government racist at its founding? Yes Is it today? No, at least, most people would say no. Ted wasn't pointing out that MEChA wasn't racist then, he was talking about its relation now to Bustamante and public opinion. There's clearly a difference, and that's what I was trying to point out. From the original post: During the California recall, Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante was harshly criticized for his refusal to renounce his involvement as a student in the Chicano student group MEChA. Critics frequently called MEChA a hate group, the equivalent of the Klu Klux Klan, or “fascist hatemongers”. We're talking contemporary, here. MEChA may well have been racist, just as major league baseball was once racist. We're talking about whether its current form is racist, and that doesn't seem to be the case. I need to read about Lochner now, so I don't have time for this. Hopefully I've clarified what I was attempting to say.

By: linden

linden — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:35:31 +0000

By: Grand Moff Texan

Grand Moff Texan — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:33:00 +0000

Linden: when exactly did INS agents finally succeed in their epic struggle to win recognition for their race, with its ancient and distinguished culture? (and since when did campus organization newsletters become the concern of anyone beyond the poor sap who got stuck with the job?)

By: Bob McGrew

Bob McGrew — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:32:24 +0000

I’d say that demanding that MEChA expunge or white(?)wash its own history is exactly the sort of unreasonable expectation that they were formed to fight against. Do you think that everyone who believes in equal rights for blacks must denounce Malcolm X when prompted? Must all white people apologize for what they or their parents or grandparents believed in the ‘50s and earlier, whenever someone asks? Here I thought they were formed to fight against discrimination. I’d back them in that. Now, in truth, I’m not so up-to-speed on the bad things that Malcolm X did that I can say whether or not he should be renounced, or even what the organization he formed is that would be expected to do this. But I do know that I, for one, would be happy to renounce segregation, racism, and slavery – which some of my grandparents and great-grandparents and so on further back played a part in preserving, at least passively. I do expect fraternities to renounce their old policies of exclusion (and almost all of the ones I know about have). As to the other point, Bill O’Reilly is a self-made straw man. Perhaps more importantly, even if it wasn’t a straw man criticism, defending MEChA and Bustamante against that criticism is defending them against the weakest and most implausible criticism out there. (Although it’s one that could have been dispelled had Bustamante or MEChA said that he didn’t believe in the Plan de Aztlan, something other Latino members of the Assembly did quite readily.) If you want to dispell everyone’s doubts, you should address the strongest criticism of MEChA.

By: linden

linden — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:23:35 +0000

mikhel, questions #22 and #23 clearly indicate that there are indeed racists within MEcha. As well, I have read about separate incidents of physical attacks on white, black and Asian Americans protesting illegal immigration by members of Mecha. Clearly there are problems within Mecha: “In its letter, FIRE reminded UCSD of a case in 1995 involving MEChA’s own publication, Voz Fronteriza, when the University in general, and Vice Chancellor Watson in particular, issued an unequivocal defense of the right to free expression. In May of 1995, Voz Fronteriza published an editorial on the death of a Latino Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) agent, entitled “Death of a Migra Pig.” The MEChA editorial termed the dead agent a “traitor…to his race,” stated, “We’re glad this pig died, he deserved to die,” and argued, “All the Migra pigs should be killed, every single one…the only good one is a dead one…The time to fight back is now. It is time to organize an anti-Migra patrol…It is to [sic] bad that more Migra pigs didn’t die with him.” “ The only way something like that could get published would be if it was widely accepted by that particular wing of Mecha.