Comments on: Cry Me a River

By: David Weigel

David Weigel — Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:00:43 +0000

Color me picky, but… “An article in the New York Times reports that the (white) relatives of Strom Thurmond are all upset since (black) Essie Mae Washington-Williams told the world last week that Thurmond was her father.” …why is she called “black” if her father was white? Isn’t she better called “mixed-race” or “biracial” or something, or are people with some African ancestors still to be called “black” even if they also have European ancestors?

By: Paul

Paul — Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:33:46 +0000

That doesn’t make Thurmond different from, for example, John Kennedy, who was very hesitating in his efforts on civil rights.

“I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there’s not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigger race into our theatres into our swimming pools into our homes and into our churches.”—Strom Thurmond, 1948.

Yeah, just like JFK. I gotta say, though, Jim Miller gets points for invoking Monica Lewinsky’s name. It’s all about the Clenis.

By: drapetomaniac

drapetomaniac — Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:17:21 +0000

I think, from the evidence I have seen, that Strom Thurmond’s behavior was not as bad as Mfume’s. Mfume was inveighing against race-mixing and building his career on suppressing the aspirations to freedom of whites while having half-white children he paid off to keep their mouth shut? I’m surprised that Mfume hasn’t become more of an icon then.

By: Jim Miller

Jim Miller — Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:32:25 +0000

Some scattered points: 1. The New York Times article was intended to make Thurmond’s white descendants look bad. It had a far worse tone than other articles with their reactions. I suspect that it is not a fair statement of their views. 2. My point about Mfume is simple, though I should have been more direct. I think, from the evidence I have seen, that Strom Thurmond’s behavior was not as bad as Mfume’s. However—and this is the essential point—Mfume (like Jesse Jackson) is now a role model for young black men, while Strom Thurmond is not. Very few who condemn Thurmond have anything to say about Mfume, or Jesse Jackson, for that matter, even though Mfume’s behavior matters now and Thurmond’s doesn’t. 3. Not having been in the bedroom with Strom, I do not know whether what happened was rape. We don’t even know which one initiated the affair. (Those who think the power difference makes this unlikely should recall Monica Lewinsky.) We do know that, according to the daughter, the relationship continued for a long time and that her mother spoke well of Strom. It may have been statuatory rape, of course. It may also have been a love story. We simply don’t know. 4. “Some dude” may want to look at the post I mentioned above, pointing out that, early in his career, Thurmond was about as favorable to blacks as a South Carolina politician could be then. For example, while Democratic senator Robert Byrd was joining the Klan, Thurmond was fighting the Klan. The evidence from the beginning and end of his career sugggests that he was not a racist, or less of one than most Southern whites of his time. 5. Of course most politicians are opportunists, to some extent. Democratically elected politicians who do not, to some extent, follow popular opinion are usually replaced by politicians who will. That doesn’t make Thurmond different from, for example, John Kennedy, who was very hesitating in his efforts on civil rights.

By: some dude

some dude — Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:30:05 +0000

Considering his early career and his two switches, I see him as more of an opportunist than a racist. Well, an awfully large percentage of successful politicians might just be considered opportunists. That Ol’ Strom was also extremely racist seems besides the point. And what was your point, by the way, in comparing Mr. Thurmond to Mr. Mfume? One wonders.

By: derrida derider

derrida derider — Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:34:22 +0000

To say that the announcement “was like a blight on the family” and that “For the first time in my life, I felt shame” might mean that the speaker is ashamed of the old goat’s hypocrisy because he/she was appalled by it, or it might mean that they simply thought it should be hushed up (its the difference between repenting of a crime because you know its wrong and repenting of it because you were caught). If the sentiment was the former it’s praiseworthy, if the latter it’s blameworthy. You’d need the context to be sure of which was meant. But judging by some of the other comments I suspect the blameworthy interpretation is correct.

By: Jon H

Jon H — Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:16:14 +0000

Jim Miller – Mfume’s illegitimate children probably weren’t the result of rape. Thurmond’s sex with the help was almost certainly rape. Maybe not violent, but coerced. Big difference.

By: gimmeadollar

gimmeadollar — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:31:36 +0000

I don’t really have much of an opinion on this (dog bites man quality)…but I don’t understand the relevance of this: Kweisi Mfume, who has a better tan than Thurmond, but resembles the early Thurmond in some ways, managed to father illegitimate children with three different women in less than two years. So far as I can tell, it didn’t hurt his career at the NAACP a bit. What does Mfume, his “tan” and his illegitimate children have to do with the story? Forgive me if I’m jumping to the wrong conclusion, but…huh? Is this the same technique as, say, when the topic is the suffering of blacks under slavery and the moral culpability of the whites involved, a clever apologist will speak up, “well, many Africans were enslaved by their own people, etc.?” Yeah, that’s true, but, what’s the point? I thought we were talking about Strom Thurmond, not “any random politically visible black” who might have engaged in tangentially-related behavior. The issue wasn’t promiscuity or adultery, it was the “discomfort” of the family, and the inferences to be drawn from such, right? I’m probably being overly sensitive. My racist relatives commonly make comments like, “but blacks use the n-word, why can’t we?” And this reminded me of that. But I probably missed the point, and made an ass of myself. If so I apologize. It wouldn’t be the first time.

By: Michael

Michael — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:46:22 +0000

“I Was Strom Thurmond’s Daughter and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt”

By: Michael

Michael — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:46:06 +0000

“I Was Strom Thurmon’d Daughter and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt”

By: andalucia

andalucia — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:33:51 +0000

Most people in Strom’s state South Carolina have known for a long time about his daughter. Have you read the account of how, in order for his daughter to get money from him, she’d have to appear in person and always cash. I doubt Strom is in heaven. What a horrible load it must be to carry on your back knowing your father thought you were less than human. That poor woman.

By: Matt Weiner

Matt Weiner — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:12:56 +0000

I read that Ernest Hollings, whose record on race is by no means admirable, got to Thurmond’s left on the issue—they say he oversaw peaceful school desegregation from ‘59 to ‘63. But arguendo, I’ll accept “opportunistically promoted the idea that his children were less than fully human until it was safe not to” if you like. And if the past is prologue, I don’t think it’s a good idea to continue this discussion, so I’ll sign off.

By: Jim Miller

Jim Miller — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:19:40 +0000

You can find my post on Strom’s early career here: http://www.seanet.com/~jimxc/Politics/June2003_4.html#jrm1188 By the way, those interested in this general subject will want to see my post on the rise and fall and rise in Southern black voting. It should be out in about a week.

By: Jim Miller

Jim Miller — Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:01:41 +0000

Matt – Neither did Strom, as you would know if you read my post on Strom as a liberal some months ago. In his early career, he was about as liberal on race as a white politician could be in South Carolina. There’s some interesting bits on him in V. O Key’s classic, Southern Politics that supports this argument. He switched, perhaps to save his own career in 1948, but even then he did very little race baiting. And then, as soon as it was safe to do so, he switched back again, being one of the first Southern senators to hire black staff members. And he was superb at constituent service for all South Carolinians at about the same time. Considering his early career and his two switches, I see him as more of an opportunist than a racist.

By: Matt Weiner

Matt Weiner — Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:31:01 +0000

Jim—Mfume didn’t go on to base a political career on the idea that his children were less than fully human, did he? Big difference between himself and Strom. Ophelia—Well, I would say that ignorant, pathological, dangerous, and bigoted all follow from segregationist; fiery and inflammatory describe the way he went about it. But yes, I wish more journalists had the courage to use the phrase “loathsome toad” in discussing Thurmonds, Helmses, and Maddoxes in their dotage.