Comments on: One man’s terrorist

By: gothygirl

gothygirl — Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:26:23 +0000

I think you overhype the current level of discrimination in Northern Ireland” Fogey, I said things were better. I agree with you that the sectarian state has ended and our parties need to grow with the times. I support Sinn Fein, because I beleive change comes from within. Something I have learned with some of my American mates and their dealings with the Democratic party here in America. Lower upper. Walked into that one m8. If you are interested, Malachi Odoherty has a good piece on identity on today’s Belfast Telegraph. It can provide some insight into the tribalism of our parties that you mentioned it. Would love to hear your comments.

By: Manumission

Manumission — Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:07:22 +0000

Osama bin Laden and his Taliban were welcomed as heroes by the people of Afghanistan because they put paid to both the warlords and the Russians. Actually, the Russians were long gone by the time the Taliban came onto the scene (1994). And, actually, OBL had nothing to do with the Taliban during their initial rise. The Taliban were almost, if not already, in Kabul by the time OBL made it to Afghanistan from Sudan. But, hey, who needs facts when you’re making a point about the Middle East? It all just melts into a murky haze.

By: Young Fogey

Young Fogey — Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:02:08 +0000

And the point is simple: the provos rule their turfs like mob bosses. Quite correct, but… Teenage kids were (and are) ‘asked’ to run errands, and if they refused, they were first beaten, second kneecapped, third shot This is complete, total and utter shite. I grew up in a major Republican stronghold in North Belfast’s ethnic chessboard, the sort of place where the lampposts vote Sinn Féin. I was politically active against Sinn Féin in my teens. The only people who got asked to do errands for the Ra were people who wanted to, and unfortunately there were plenty of them. I grew up in Andersontown in the lower Falls Gothygirl – Andytown is, how should I put it, not in the Lower Falls. In fact it’s above the Upper Falls. At least it is was three weeks ago when I was there last. Are you for real or are you trolling? Other than that, I agree, neither the Brits nor the Free Staters want anything to do with us, and logically therefore we should make NI work as a society. Which is not going to happen when our political parties are tribally based and our main paramilitary groups are up to their oxters in organised crime. I think you overhype the current level of discrimination in Northern Ireland, though (no arguments about pre-69). Come on we have had a Catholic Lord Chief Justice and a Catholic Head of the Civil Service in the past two years. Are there any more bastions of the establishment left to storm?

By: dsquared

dsquared — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:45:53 +0000

Sectarianism still exists, but we Catholics [...] you’ve gotta laugh, or else you’d cry.

By: gothygirl

gothygirl — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:05:54 +0000

I grew up in Andersontown and I never ran errands for provo bossess. This is rubbish. This post makes no sense. Kneecappings are not an everyday occurence in the Falls. They do happen, but much less than drive by shootings in Los Angeles or drug executions in Baltimore. Most of us are hard working people and the Falls is not the wild west you describe. Yes, the provos are still there running about the place, but things are much different than you describe them. Your NI teachers might be telling u wee tale of hardships. I suggest you go and stay there for a while. Things have changed. Before I came to America to study I beleived that all americans were fat and people were shot at random on the streets of Philadelphia. Truth be told Philadelphia has more crime than Belfast and NI has one of the lowest crime rates in the UK. Jobs are still scarce for Catholics but since the end of the sectarian state this has ended. Sectarianism still exists, but we Catholics have a lot more influence about the place these days.

By: dsquared

dsquared — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:35:18 +0000

In the early days Gerry and the PIRA were defenders. This is a fact that can not be denied. To compare Gerry to Bin Landen is obsence and is a sad attempt at posturing. Not at all; “in the early days” (how I long for ‘em Osama bin Laden and his Taliban were welcomed as heroes by the people of Afghanistan because they put paid to both the warlords and the Russians. It’s a rare complete bastard indeed who doesn’t have at least some semblance of a heroic past.

By: s.e.

s.e. — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:13:26 +0000

Ahem, I have no argument with anything you’ve said.

By: Doug

Doug — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:48:27 +0000

As the risk of posing two sensible questions in a discussion about Northern Ireland, didn’t the IRA run pretty thoroughly afoul of Washington when some of their people were caught running a bomb-making training camp with the FARCs in Colombia? Didn’t their friends in the States get slapped with frozen bank accounts and the other sundry things Treasury does to people it really, really doesn’t like? I thought the last remnants of official US wink and nod had gone away after the FARC business…

By: raj

raj — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:51:47 +0000

I have to ask the author of this post, do you have a point with this post? One of the things that I do when I write memoranda is to structure the memoranda so as to identify the specific points I want make and provide commentary on the points later in the memoranda. I have to say, this post is so convoluted that it is virtually impossible to figure out what point(s) the author was trying to make. And, for those of us who are trying to make efficient use of our time, it really isn’t worth the effort to try to figure out what the point(s) were. On the other hand, I must admit that that is not unusual among the “blogosphere.”

By: ahem

ahem — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:20:52 +0000

I’m sure someone’s gonna yell at you for that. Perhaps so, perhaps not. As I say, I had a Catholic upbringing, and that included being taught by young teachers from NI, who’d grown up on the Falls Road and dealt with the fact that there were no damn jobs in the province by moving to the mainland. And the point is simple: the provos rule their turfs like mob bosses. Teenage kids were (and are) ‘asked’ to run errands, and if they refused, they were first beaten, second kneecapped, third shot. But it meant that ‘renegade’ drug dealing and car theft were stamped upon, and certain ‘social programs’ promulgated. Just like Hamas, in fact. Tangentially, I find it intriguing that ‘Line of Fire’ has a mob boss (Jonah Malloy) who’s identifiably Irish-American. If those who stuck bills into the collection box at the Half Moon and O’Shea’s extrapolated that back to Belfast, they might think twice. My point is quite subtle: for all of Adams’ undeniable past, he’s quite simply stuck with the political process, and with Sinn Féin as a part of it. And as long as it’s moving, even in steps that are imperceptible to most—Vincent Hanna (RIP) was the smartest commentator on how the peace process in NI passeth all understanding—and as long as paramilitary activity remains akin to mob violence, then (paradoxically) it’s a success. The ultimate success being a political stability that finally is able to deal with the way that paramilitaries on both sides terrorise their own communities.

By: s.e

s.e — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:35:44 +0000

“The days of the IRA working as a kind of Irish Hamas are long gone” I’m sure someone’s gonna yell at you for that. But it only proves the limitation of the original post.

By: ahem

ahem — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:55:32 +0000

Tangentially: remember that Gerry Adams can enter the US without being photographed or fingerprinted. Just wanted to share that with you. Also, Ali G may have had one of the more insightful exchanges on mainland attitudes to NI politics when talking to a Unionist councillor: Ali G: ‘So, you is Irish?’ Unionist: ‘No, I’m British.’ Ali G: ‘Okay. So you is here on holiday then?’ Most people across the Irish Sea as a sad appendix; it’s an irony that the most fervently ‘British’ people in the UK (Ulster Unionists) are regarded by most in Britain as an embarrassment. That said, I’ve seen the hat being passed for ‘The Cause’ (i.e. NORAID) among third-generation ‘Irish-Americans’ in bars in New England, and as a Catholic of Irish descent, it disgusts me almost as much as the history of sectarian discrimination against Catholics in NI. Americans tend not to realise that nowadays the paramilitaries on both sides are little more than mob bosses, with the council estates as their turfs. It didn’t help that during the glorious Thatcher 80s, unemployment in NI reached close to 25%, creating a lot of idle hands. The days of the IRA working as a kind of Irish Hamas are long gone. So, there’s no ‘cause’ left in NI outside the political process. Whatever fools like Ian Paisley say. And that’s why Americans with an interest in foreign policy could actually take lessons from what’s happened in NI over the past decade.

By: gothygirl

gothygirl — Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:43:56 +0000

As a Northern Ireland Nationalists who is currently studying in America, I have but a few things on the whole Gerry and the Provos things. Besides sounding like a bad Elton John Song, the whole Gerry was a provo debate is one that Unionists, Loyalists and the people who love them have been carrying on for some time now. Many unionists wish to have a security blanket and point to all the nation’s troubles to Sinn Fein. Most of us know of Gerry’s provo past, dogs on the street know Gerry was a provo and as I posted on Slugger I beleive his cat was a provo, but the RUC never proved it. Gerry’s father was a provo before the provos were provos. I grew up in Andersontown in the lower Falls ( its full of provos) and I know of no one who does not know that Gerry was a provo. I have always condemend the IRA. The Provisional IRA was (is?) a terrorist organization, but they were not such in the begining. The provisional IRA was born in the ashes of 1969 when protestant and loyalist mobs led by Ian Paisley set out to burn us Catholics out of our homes. They were quite succesful and to this day we have not received an apology. The IRA was born because the unionist state saw it fit to denny us education, housing, and welfare. We were in short, treated as dogs. THe leaders who were ORange order members spoke freely of a protestant ULSTER and freely said they wanted no catholics about theplace. In the early days Gerry and the PIRA were defenders. This is a fact that can not be denied. To compare Gerry to Bin Landen is obsence and is a sad attempt at posturing. Gerry and Martin led the IRA away from their murder campaign, and have built Sinn Fein into the biggest nationalist party in NI. Gerry and Martin continue to negotiate with provo bossess for a full decomisioning. Can they do more? Certainly! But Maria why dont you negotiate with your loyalist lads in SOuth Belfast tell them “put the guns away boys” see how far that gets you love. THE IRA has stopped all hostilities. THis is more than I can say for the LOYALISTS who continue to carry sectarian attacks and are now carrying out racial crimes in Loyalist areas of BELFAST, but I did not read one word in her piece asking for the loyalist boys to put down “their” weapons. The truth is a lot of these loyalist murder gangs have a lot of support in their communities. Northern Ireland has many problems , we are a deeply divided society and many of us do not acknowledge the wrongs of our communities. Unionists live in a siege mentality and fail to acknowledge the wrongs and the mess they helped create. Maria accuses our American friends of simplifying the troubles. I respectfully disagree. She points to the murder of Jean McConville. by burly IRA men. Because us “catholics’ are burly. A brutal act that has no justification. However she fails to condem the British state for putting her in the situation she was put in. Records show she was an informer and had been warned by the provos. She should have never been killed but the SAS should have never put her life in danger. IT was atrocious but why did the British state put this mother of 10 in such a dangerous place? It is not true that she was killed for helping a British soldier. This is Unionist rubbish. Before u send a reply condeming me, I will say that I only brought this point up to ilustrate our different perceptions of history. When Jeanne’s body was brought to a church in West Belfast I was one of the few Nationalists who was there to pay my respects. It was a monstrous murder and I condem it. Most stayed away. I understand why. THe Belfast TElegraph and most unionists condemed our community. Because the official story continues to be that she was killed for helping a dying British soldier. Truth is always a casualty in every conflict. In Northern Ireland is even more complex. I agree with Maria, the South abandoned us long ago, and they never wanted any part of us. I would argue that many in Britain dont want part of their so called Ulster and many Ulster folk are called Paddys ( just like us) when they visit England. We have to learn to build a better Northern Ireland but by accusing us of causing the problems is not the way. We have a lot more in common than we beleive, but until we stop blaming and become realists NI will continue to be a divided society.

By: eirepol

eirepol — Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:53:49 +0000

The huge financial support that Irish-Americans give to Sinn Féin is even more important now that they can no longer be seen to be actively acquiring same from banks and post offices. The party does not usually emphasise its revolutionary socialist credentials to doners who are probably members of the Ancient Order of Hibernians or other traditional catholic organisations in the US. Sinn Féin are really a “catch all” party who like to appear in different form depending on what political or electoral market they are playing. In Northern Ireland, Sinn Féin is replacing the SDLP as the dominant voice of mainstream nationalism. In the Republic the party still positions itself as a left wing alternative to the Labour Party and the voice of the economically marginalised. They can maintain this stance for a while-there is an electoral niche for this type of party. But most Irish electors either vote for who they want to be in government or for very localistic considerations and not on the basis of ideology. The party can rail against the Republic’s corrupt political establishment for another parliamentary term or two but eventually the electoral logic of Irish politics will demand that they some day enter government with their fellow nationalists in Fianna Fáil or else be consigned to irrelevance. It is this likely future outcome that provides one of the reasons why many people shuffle uncomfortably and want to evade some of the harsh truths and uncomfortable facts such as those highlighted by Maria.

By: Mrs Tilton

Mrs Tilton — Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:56:42 +0000

Daniel writes, IRA big on extortion, but tough on petty theft and drug dealing They have a nice line in bank robbery as well. The last garda killed by the IRA died when he interrupted an IRA bank robbery. In fact the overwhelming majority of gardai killed in the line of duty have been killed by the IRA.