Comments on: Abominable Europe

By: lindenen

lindenen — Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:55:48 +0000

My opinion of the EU is that it is a tyranny. It looks like a nice Soviet Union, which is really just mutated monarchy. Unelected, unaccountable, kleptocratic bureaucrats effectively running several different countries. It will suck up more and more of the usual duties of elected leaders to the point that elected representatives are largely irrelevant to the governing of Europe. I find it scary. There are other things as well. The lack of free speech, etc that I dislike. Indeed, the high degree of centralization, high regulation, statism, etc strike me as inimical to Europe’s interests. If Europe substantially cut taxes as well as regulations, its economy would kick the US’s ass. Europe can only carry its double digit unemployment rate for so long. How a country with such high unemployment still permits so much immigration is mind-boggling to me.

By: x

Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:03:13 +0000

Speaking as one who does not believe “that international law should take precedence over national law under certain circumstances”: It is hard to overstate the amount of damage which the antics of the UN General Assembly (in particular) have caused to internationalism. They have hugely discredited the institution and even the very concept.

By: Randy McDonald

Randy McDonald — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 05:06:48 +0000

PB: Given that Germany is considering dropping conscription and has already cut back its military to the bone, and that other European countries are even less militarized, I don’t think European traditions of militarism are active, never mind relevant.

By: zizka

zizka — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:45:12 +0000

JDSM —I was trying to be funny. Really. A lot of the American stereotypes of Europe I mentioned go back to the 50’s or 60’s, when today’s big shots were in college. American coffee is now probably as good as European coffee, and maybe beer and wine too, but even in 1980 it wasn’t.

By: robbo

robbo — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:30:22 +0000

I think the visceral, as opposed to intellectually thought-out, reason for Euro-hatred lies mostly in the fact that Europeans tend to treat their citizens as something more than cheap, expendable work-units. Conservatives LOVE cheap, expendable work-units, and they’ve gone head-over-heels for Southeast Asia. Above all, conservatives don’t want American workers looking across the Atlantic and saying, “Why can’t we have something more like that?”

By: Another Damned Medievalist

Another Damned Medievalist — Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:58:35 +0000

Sorry, but one of the real problems in this (USA) country is our inability to see comparisons of ourselves to any other country as unpatriotic. I’ve lived in many parts of the US and also in Europe. Things that just are true:

In general, western Europe has better, more efficient public transportation per capita than the US (although the UK tries to buck that trend)
unless you like bread with lots of air and sugar, European bread is better in terms of taste and consistency.
American coffee is as good as European coffees, and is more plentiful and cheaper
We do turn out a lot of crap films—but then, so do many European countries. We just don’t see them over here
People on the Continent do seem to care more, overall, about basic human rights and social responsibility, based on their attitudes towards crime, punishment, education and health care, and the willingness of the wealthier to pay more in taxes.
the sense of proportion that most (again continental) Europeans have about work, family, and free time seems to me to be much healthier than the 24/7 work hours that US companies expect.
Europe seems to care less about convenience and quantity in the marketplace, preferring instead a more civilized way of living, IMO

Oh—and Europe has real football. On the other hand, to many US citizens, the social and economic controls and peer pressure that one often feels in Europe can be seen as oppressive and even invasive. I can’t say I ever felt that way, though.

By: Sebastian Holsclaw

Sebastian Holsclaw — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:51:32 +0000

What’s 461 Billion between friends. I mean other than the GDP of much of the rest of the world. ;)

By: Kenny

Kenny — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:44:18 +0000

“I think US conservatives see the EU as an itch. Economically and militarily it is dwarfed by the US” Militarily yes, but economically ? Hmm, The OECD puts the 2003 GDP of the US at 10,857 billion and the EU’s at 10,396 Billion. Not much of a gap there.

By: jdsm

jdsm — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:12:15 +0000

I think US conservatives see the EU as an itch. Economically and militarily it is dwarfed by the US, yet it’s just about big enough to require dealing with. Moreover, the EU fails to recognise on a cultural level that the US has anything to offer – which must be irritating. Truth be told Europeans do look down on the US and it wouldn’t matter how much money the US had or how much power, it would always be the same. I used to play squash with a guy who was fat and slow and whose backhand was less than a tenth as elegant as mine – but he always got the ball back and used to beat me as often as I beat him. He was itchy too. I always thought “Why won’t you just die!”. I feel US conservatives have much the same attitude to the EU.

By: jdsm

jdsm — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:01:09 +0000

“Like Enron and WorldCom and PG&E, these things tend to happen in the more-heavily regulated sectors of the economy. As Europe’s economy is generally more heavily regulated than the US’s, one can expect more corruption in Europe than in the US.” The more heavily regulated European countries always top the corruption indices (i.e. are least corrupt). This is just nonsense. “My father was a conservative and I’ve known that Sweden was near bankruptcy and collapse ever since 1956. I’m not sure I live long enough to really see it though.” This is comical rubbish. On what basis is Sweden “near bancruptcy”? Does it have a large national debt? No. Does it have a giant current account deficit? No. Does it have French levels of unemployment? No. In fact, is there any reason to think continuing with the same system will lead to problems in the future? No.

By: zizka

zizka — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:36:52 +0000

The antipathy to the EU comes from a lot of fairly rational sources—antipathy to bureaucracy and to the welfare state, the perception that the EU might be a threat to US domination, specific issues about the Iraq War. A lot of the vehemence comes from the fact that not only American left-liberals and also American snobs tend to look to Europe. Not only do conservatives have to listen to praise of the Swedish welfare state, but also to people grumbling about American bread, American coffee, American movies, etc., and how only in Europe do people really know how to live. American conservative populism is fake, but the germ of truth is that many American conservatives, however wealthy and powerful, are rather provincial in their tastes and experience. And many liberals are liberal arts types with a snobbish air. So nationalistic defensiveness has a big part in this, reinforced by the hostility between two different American elites. Years ago I wrote a squib I can’t find now about the importance of Belgian sovereignty. George Will was irate about the EU’s threat to sovereignty and I asked myself, “Why should he care?” Sovereignty by definition is particularistic, indexal, and competitive, and not universal. To be in favor of sovereignty as such is sort of like saying that everyone should be taller than everyone else, or to be offended on the behalf of someone who you think should be offended but isn’t. My father was a conservative and I’ve known that Sweden was near bankruptcy and collapse ever since 1956. I’m not sure I live long enough to really see it though.

By: BP

BP — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:15:58 +0000

The irony is not entirely lost on me, Mr. McDonald, but I would like to point out that our bloodthirsty militarism is someone else’s problem.

By: Randy McDonald

Randy McDonald — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:02:17 +0000

BP: As opposed to the United States? Quite frankly, given that it was founded on territory separated from its fairly benign colonizer by the prototypical elite-led war of revolutionary independence, absorbed more than half of its territory via conquests (of non-sovereign native groups and sovereign states like Mexico and Spain), and continued to harbour imperialist aspirations towards its neighbours long afterwards (witness the continued sentiment, expressed by many Americans, that Canadians really want to be Americans), it’s a miracle that it turned out as well as it did. And that’s a Good Thing. I like Americans, and American culture, after all. I just think I, and my nation, have a right not to be assimilated into either category.

By: Alan

Alan — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:29:01 +0000

I suggest that it is not just about geopolitical rivalry nor about fear of a different socio-economic model that has worked fairly well. Most social and political beliefs are visceral. The rational justification of the belief system trails along after opinions have already formed. Whence the visceral dislike of Europe? One element is an inferiority complex, bombastically over-compensated. Those oily garlic eaters speak three languages, make great cars and have style, goddamit.

By: GMT

GMT — Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:19:00 +0000

anthony: yes, and those are illegal, which is why they are, as you say, scandals. Got it, now?