Comments on: “Twenty or thirty years ago…”

By: Lawrence Krubner

Lawrence Krubner — Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:03:48 +0000

“But from a lot of fiction and talks I guess sexual roles and images are much more “fixed” and “to be adhered to” in the US than in Europe.” I think someone here on Crooked Timber once remarked that America had better legal protections for eccentric behavior, but a less accepting culture, and in England the exact opposite was true.

By: Lawrence Krubner

Lawrence Krubner — Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:37:57 +0000

I’m in agreement with Ophelia Benson’s comment above, the 1950s remain a critical touchstone. My thought on that is that there is something fundamentally conservative about having children, and the Baby Boom was the end of the period, 1750 – 1958, when the West was clearly pro population growth, and saw a lot of it. I’ve been thinking and writing about this all day, and will have more to say soon.

By: harry

harry — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:02:13 +0000

Despite Chris’s observation about my writing style, I’d second reuben’s observation (though I’m in the wrong place). Its even more noticeable comparing provincial UK with provincial US. I wonder if women notice a difference in the behavior expected from them. In graduate school (in the US) a (British male) friend and I were shunned by one apparently enlightened (American) male grad student. We always wondered why, and were eventually told (by a mutual friend) that he thought we were gay because of the way we crossed our legs! Mark you, as an undergrad (in London) my best friend was very flambouyantly gay and it was not much fun hanging out near the football team. marc—I know its Alexei Sayle. Maybe ‘Alexei Sayle’s Stuff’?

By: reuben

reuben — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:12:57 +0000

Strictly anecdotal, but my British male friends are much more comfortable with their “feminine sides” than my American male friends are. Pretty much all other factors are controlled for: similar interests, tastes, ages and political beliefs, and all are urban (London and New York). Upon moving, I quickly came to realise that I feel far less pressure to be traditionally masculine here in London than I do in New York. (What a relief; I was never very good at it anyway.)

By: ginger

ginger — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:36:04 +0000

David Bowie and Marc Bolan Hmm… Oh well today we have The Darkness. Nah, it doesn’t really compare, I know…

By: TH

TH — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:02:04 +0000

Another datapoint: I was wearing make-up in the early eighties, as were quite a few of my friends. (Mostly the usual: eyeliner, nail polish and a bit of lipstick) We also wore formal suits or weird shirts depening on the mood. We weren’t hassled and that was in a franconian (southern germany) small town. Freaks of all kind were – while not the norm – at least usual enough to not draw even a raised eyebrow. But from a lot of fiction and talks I guess sexual roles and images are much more “fixed” and “to be adhered to” in the US than in Europe.

By: C G

C G — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:01:18 +0000

Two years ago, I was a teenager in Florida, and no guys ever wore makeup. Nor was that even remotely considered as an option. If one were to try even once, the stigma would be ruinous and permanent.

By: Gretchen

Gretchen — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:53:35 +0000

But my point in making it is just to observe how common is the notion of a “dreamtime” about “twenty or thirty years ago” when 1950s moral and cultural norms are supposed to have applied. It could simply that for teenagers “twenty or thirty years” is that mythical time when their parents were young. So perhaps there’s some squeamishness invloved when it comes to thinking of one’s father, or even his peers, wearing make-up and experimenting with gender roles.

By: Matt McG

Matt McG — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:56:07 +0000

[rambling anecdote alert] I walked around a small Scottish town, widely agreed to be a ‘tough’ place, in full on glam-rock make-up and clothes (of the LA dodgy big-hair 1980s variety) in the late 1980s. I can’t say it was approved of but on the whole people were fairly tolerant – as long as you didn’t walk about like a potential victim but did it with a bit of confidence and ‘up yours’ attitude. I remember one school friend (a conservative farmer type) offering me a lift one night and being shocked that I was wearing lipstick and eyemakeup – but his response once he got over the shock was of the “are you wearing makeup Matt? Aye? Suits ye.” I did get into some fights but that was much more about being part of a biker/metal/punk sub-culture which clashed with the prevalent football ‘casual’ culture and therefore had more to do with where I drank and the length of my hair than the make-up. Tribalism was rife, but the signfiers of your tribe were less important than which actual tribe you were nominally part of. I remember some acquaintances from school – who were ‘tentative goths’ (i.e. neatly dressed, conservative haircuts all week, eyeliner and attempts to mess the hair up at the weekend) all coming to the pub one night in drag. They got a few cheeky comments but little actual hassle. The idea that guys could look wierd and still be ‘alright’ seemed fairly common. People in the council estate I was from were perfectly blasé about it, but then again I’d lived there all my life, had grown up with all the resident ‘hard men’ and was a ‘known heterosexual’ :-). Life was much harder for the transexual guy who lived round the corner (not a joke) he/she got by through being 6ft 3 and about 200lbs (also not a joke). I’ve never been to America so I can’t compare the culture there. Britain has a pretty massive tolerance for wierdness in my experience – the big problems are binge drinking and the attendant violence that goes along with it, but you’re not that much more likely to be a target just because you look odd. Chris is right I think that actual homosexuality (as opposed to straight guys messing with their image) is much more tolerated now than it was then. My Dad’s local pub – a bastion of old fashioned rural Scottish Protestant bigotry – now has a fully ‘out’ homosexual couple among the regulars and that would never have happened 20 years ago.

By: teep

teep — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:16:50 +0000

Dunno why, mark, but that reminds me a lot of The Young Ones, a british comedy with (among other things) a lot of lentils, Dexy’s Midnight Runners, and someone who looked a lot like Buddy Holly hanging from the ceiling upstairs.

By: Z

Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:15:23 +0000

Why does Chris hate America?

By: Mark

Mark — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:02:44 +0000

Scumbag college, your starter for 10. Name the artist, song and television program that the following lyrics appeared in: Doctor Martens Doctor Martens Doctor Martens Boots Those boots with the Air-Wair soles That retail for only 19.99 etc etc etc…

By: jamie

jamie — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:54:00 +0000

“DMs?” Dr Marten’s boots, now something of a fashion accessory, originally workmen’s boots popular with footy hooligan types and skinheads

By: Miriam

Miriam — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:46:40 +0000

Oddly enough, I never got the pro-1950s moral thing from my own parents; I don’t know the extent to which their social class as teens (both grew up on or well below the poverty line) plays a part. My father in particular tends to associate the 1950s with teenage male promiscuity, accompanied by the usual double standard. IIRC, the Chicago Tribune ran an interesting article around ‘95 or ‘96 which argued that teenage pregnancy rates had declined noticeably since the 50s; what had gone up were unmarried teen pregnancies. In other words, the shotgun marriage vanished.

By: Cryptic Ned

Cryptic Ned — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:41:55 +0000

I remember the first football matches I went to in the mid seventies. All the hooligans had sprayed their DM’s with silver glitter and were wearing eyeliner, in imitation of A Clockwork Orange, I suspect. DM’s? I would say that in the US over the last decade, a boy wearing makeup and poufy hair would be an outcast in any public high school outside of a few in NYC, LA, or SF. I’d be very surprised if there was some document that this wasn’t the case 30 years ago. Different in Britain, I guess.