Comments on: What did you do in Chinatown?

By: Belle Waring

Belle Waring — Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:21:25 +0000

Woof, I’m glad to hear that the market is still there in some form, though I didn’t think it was that unsanitary before. And I sure was sad to miss your wedding…

By: Thlayli

Thlayli — Wed, 03 Mar 2004 05:57:37 +0000

Yes, yes, but what about the important quastion: Are the Chinese immigrants Roma fans or Lazio fans? I’m guessing Roma, since they’re generally favored in the inner-city areas where these folks are probably living, and there’s also the … how do I put this … less-than-welcoming attitude of the Lazio ultras. Of course, they could be following Juventus, or even (God help us) that famed Chinese side, Man Yu.

By: JX

JX — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:45:45 +0000

I’ve had some amazing Chinese meals in some unpromising-looking places, most notably the Chinatown Complex and Amoy Street hawker centers in Singapore, which look dodgy even by non-Singaporean standards. I was raised with the Chinese attitude, “Don’t let fancy decor trick you into thinking the food is good.” If a place is packed with Chinese, it’s either very good or very cheap.

By: woof

woof — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 12:38:28 +0000

Hi Belle. The market has been hygienically moved to a covered market two blocks east in a former barracks. This means that when it rains the food does not get wet, and the fish and hanging goat carcasses attract far fewer flies. There is also more space in the aisles so that small-scale riots do not erupt and pickpockets find it harder to work. 90% of the stalls are staffed by Bangladeshis and you can find okra, Chinese broccoli and so on. The Piazza Vittorio is not becoming a Chinatown in the real sense of the term: most of the stores are simply wholesale clothing dealers. No ethnic economy (except for a few food stores). The neighborhood is not appropriate for wholesale activity – loading and unloading, e.g. – and as you know Italians like to have all conveniences “sotto casa”. The restaurant problem is also due to the fact that almost all Chinese in Italy come from villages in the hills around Wenzhou, while Chinese in the US and Britain come from other more important culinary regions. The one traditional Wenzhou restaurant (near Piazza Vittorio) appears to be rather vomitevole, and always full of Chinese. So the restauranteurs buy into prepackaged diaspora restaurants tailored to Italian tastes. Not being chefs themselves, they’re using a business model, not opening a restaurant. My wedding – which you unfortunately missed – was classic Roman Jewish dairy winter cuisine.

By: Andrew Chen

Andrew Chen — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:47:24 +0000

Totally agree about the very very low average level of Chinese food in Italy. Here in Milan there are Chinese restaurants all over the place but only a handful are even passable. Part of the problem is that Italian rules about the “right” way to serve cuisine mean that the homogenization is even more severe than in America. I’ve never seen so much veal on the menu; they wait till you’ve finished your rice before they serve the main course; dishes on average have at most two ingredients. Still, it could be worse. Chinese supermarkets are well stocked, and Italian cuisine is so good that the hunger for variety is rarer than it would otherwise be. What do they do in Poland?

By: Belle Waring

Belle Waring — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 06:40:08 +0000

Just to make it clear, I’d settle for Savannah, GA-level Chinese food, and be thrilled with NYC-level. The Chinese food I have had in Italy was abominable. But maybe I just wasn’t wating at the right places. Living in Singapore has spoiled me a bit for US Chinese food, but I just think of it as a different thing—many of the commonest menu items (Mu Shu Pork, notably) are unknown here.

By: reuben

reuben — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:50:24 +0000

he says Vietnamese food in NY is much more like ‘real’ Chinese food, fwiw. Interesting. Do you have any idea if the Vietnamese food in London (which, in contrast to the Chinese, is consistently fab) is similar to that in NY, and thus to “real Chinese”?

By: drapeto

drapeto — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:33:06 +0000

NY level is high enough My friend from China faints with horror at the thought of NY Chinese. She says Vietnamese food in NY is much more like ‘real’ Chinese food, fwiw.

By: rea

rea — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:04:48 +0000

Noodles seem to have been invented in China, and brought to Italy by traders in the 13th Century or so. Chinese-inspired Italian cuisine therefore is no rarity. Take some Chinese noodles, add a sauce made from American tomatoes, and presto-a classic Italian dish.

By: JX

JX — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:44:20 +0000

On a more serious note, the experience of Rome’s Chinatown highlights that the extent to which European anxiety over immigration conflates two different concerns: one sociopolitical, the other economic. The sociopolitical concerns revolve around immigrants’ adherence to the laws and norms of the host country, especially when they conflict with ancestral customs, in other words, multiculturalism. This is most often discussed in reference to Muslim immigrants. The economic concerns revolve around the anxiety that immigrants will take European jobs and abuse the generosity of the welfare state. This is most often discussed in reference to asylum seekers and, more recently, citizens of the 10 EU enlargement countries. Whether they are smuggled in or abuse tourist visas, most Chinese immigrants to Europe probably are in flagrant violation of immigration law. People-smuggling suggests the involvement of organized crime. Beyond that, however, there seems to be little reason for concern that the Chinese will undermine the Italian rule of law (such as it is). Perhaps more importantly, the entrepreneurial nature of these Chinese communities comes through in both the above article and the following BBC News story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3500285.stm One could make an economic case against immigration because of job scarcity or welfare abuse, but why on earth would you keep out someone who’s going to start a business? Compared to what Chinese communities have endured in other countries (see Chapter 1 of Amy Chua’s “World On Fire” for a good survey), this is pretty mild as far as xenophobia and discrimination go. I expect Italian anxiety will calm down, especially after their economy starts feeling the effect of all those new businesses. One innovation from China that her merchants invariably introduced to their trading partners, be it Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, or the Philippines, was noodles. I think they’d be a big hit in Italy.

By: Mitch Mills

Mitch Mills — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:50:17 +0000

When I was in China almost all of my Chinese friends generally only ate food from their own home region. So in Shanghai you could find great Hunan restaurants, for example, but almost everyone who ate there was originally from Hunan. This seemed to be slowly changing, and in general native Shanghainese were more willing to try other regions’ cuisines, but usually only in big trendy new restaurants devoted to a particular regional style, not in the cheap little downhome places run by recent arrivals to Shanghai. Italian food was available, but it tended to be incredibly expensive (foreign restaurants were usually in swanky hotels) and at best mediocre. After 1997 and the Asian currency crisis, Thailand suddenly became a cheap tourist destination relatively speaking and a significant number of Chinese could afford to travel there. By 1998 the number of Thai restaurants in Shanghai had ballooned, and we all rejoiced at the new dining options available.

By: reuben

reuben — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:32:15 +0000

I’ll second jx’s fantasay of Chinese-inspired Italian cuisine. As for carlos’s question – Is this NY-DC acceptable Chinese food, or Singapore acceptable Chinese food? - it seems unfair to hold western Chinese food to a Singapore standard. NY level is high enough. I wish London’s offerings were half as good (rather than twice as expensive). Hell, I’d be happy if London’s Chinese food were as good as Atlanta’s. And re the Italians and food, the Slow Food movement has spawned a University of Gastronomical Sciences which, if I recall correctly, is starting degree programmes this autumn(though I’m struggling to find a link).

By: JX

JX — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:50:04 +0000

Chinese immigrants of the past usually did not have access to authentic ingredients and had to improvise with local produce, which is no longer the case. However, my mouth waters at the uses to which a clever Chinese (especially Cantonese) chef could put top-notch Italian ingredients.

By: JX

JX — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:45:52 +0000

The reason for the dire state of Chinese food in the West for so many decades was that very few professional cooks were to be found among the immigrants of San Francisco or Limehouse.

By: Carlos

Carlos — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:23:58 +0000

Is this NY-DC acceptable Chinese food, or Singapore acceptable Chinese food?