Comments on: What’s in the order of a name?

By: istvan aranyosi

istvan aranyosi — Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:22:08 +0000

Yes, mrs. tilton, you’re right about my name and ethnic background. As regards names, ethnic Hungarians in Romania use the surname/given name scheme, just as those in Hungary, while ethnic Romanians the standard scheme, as the Westerners.

By: Mrs Tilton

Mrs Tilton — Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:40:59 +0000

Istvan (as I am not a particularly accomplished bitch I shall not use both your names), forgive my curiosity, but your name looks Magyar and I believe Transylvania is in that part of Romania that was once in Hungary and still has a large Magyar population. Do ethnic-Hungarian Romanians use the surname first, as in Hungary, or second? Or is it: (surname/given name) within the Magyar community, but (given name/surname) outside that community?

By: Istvan Aranyosi

Istvan Aranyosi — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:41:19 +0000

Very interesting. For better or for worse I was born in Romania (more exactly in Transylvania, which is not relevant now), and my personal subjective experience of the last 20 years or so is the following: 1. Last name/ first name: authoritarian relationships, like in elementary or high school, army (though I succeeded in avoiding army, which is still mandatory in Roamania , for the last 10 years, without them catching me or my having to pay them any fines), etc., when you introduce yourself in this way and are addressed like: “Aranyosi!” 2. First name/last name: you are more or less an accomplished bitch. 3. First name: my favourite; nowadays this is the most frequent I hear myself being called by my (human) environment.

By: Another Damned Medievalist

Another Damned Medievalist — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:13:48 +0000

Ah, Walt … now you know why most of the academics left wikipedia …

By: John Isbell

John Isbell — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:01:18 +0000

My brother and his wife used different first names for their daughter for about ten years. They’ve settled on his – Oa – over hers – Elizabeth. Napoleon is Bonaparte until he becomes Emperor, 1804. Emperors have this habit, like saints, knights, etc. Renaissance artists are probably making a statement, but it goes back to pre-Renaissance, I think. Duccio? Bourbon apologists (Chateaubriand) affected to call the guy Buonaparte after Waterloo. Limbaugh would have approved.

By: Keith M Ellis

Keith M Ellis — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 10:13:18 +0000

When I married, my (now ex) wife and I hyphenated our names together: McIntyre-Ellis. This was put on the marriage license and I subsequently changed my name for government forms, etc. and in daily usage. A friend of mine and her husband, both doctors, did the same thing, independently; though I don’t think they are as consistent regarding daily usage. In my case, this was while I was at a school where everyone is always addressed with their honorific; thus, everyone knew me as “Mr. McIntyre-Ellis”. Obviously, it was important to me that this wasn’t just a legal but also a practical gesture. This is more common these days, although men rarely change their names (while women will hyphenate). My family thought this was somewhat odd, but they got used to it. My scheme, of which I’m quite proud, is that upon marriage the couple take a hyphenated matronymic-patronymic name (first generation are forced to use a patronym or invented name in place of the matronym). The children take the same hyphenated name. Then, later, when the children marry, they keep their same-sex parent’s name and hyphenate with their partner’s same sex parent’s name. The end result is that females always have a true matronymic while males a true patronymic, so there is equity. Yet individual families with unmarried children have the same (hyphenated) surname. My ex-wife and I didn’t have any children, so this hasn’t been put to the test. (Incidentally, the “M” in “Keith M Ellis” is my middle name, which is “Martin”. My name was legally changed back to “Ellis” in the divorce decree.)

By: alf

alf — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:52:33 +0000

Ah, Gone With the Wind, of course, my Chinese friends love that movie. That’s where all the male Ashley’s are coming from. I still think it is better to suggest they change their name. If someone reads the name “Ashley Wang” they are usually going to assume it is a girl. Jamie – Is that really the case? That would confuse the hell out of me. I would assume that the first charecter of their given name was their family name, even if they were talking in english.

By: eszter

eszter — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 03:10:20 +0000

I think my sister-in-law considered hyphenating her name. I can’t imagine hyphenating any name with Hargittai, but especially not one that’s three syllables, ten letters total..

By: Matt Weiner

Matt Weiner — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:54:30 +0000

Oh sure, I just figured I’d better top off a gratuitous Hitchhiker’s Guide ref. with a gratuitous Penelope Fitzgerald ref. (that’s how I know the man’s name was von Hardenburg).

By: novalis

novalis — Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:08:14 +0000

Matt Weiner, I went from four initials (DMRT) to one (N) when I stole that poet’s name. My father’s last name is Turner, in case you couldn’t guess. I guess I forgot to add my other constraint: names shouldn’t grow too long, or they’ll end up abbreviated, which is what happened in my case. I don’t think abbreviation would have helped. Apropos of this topic, fans of Steven Brust should consider the case of Bengloarafurd Ford….

By: Anon

Anon — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:54:56 +0000

I certainly know of a couple of staffers at the China Daily who put their Chinese given names first, and would guess that the practice is taking off with the younger generation to a certain extent. jamie, Is this when speaking/writing in Chinese or English?

By: drapeto

drapeto — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:30:40 +0000

Mind, one of the greater oddities is that it’s quite common for men in Arabic cultures to take the name of ‘Father of X’ (as in the infamous Abu Hamza), which as far as I know is unique. well, it’s also true of ‘mother of’ – umm whoever. … Sometimes I think s/o is dropped altogether and Nanda and Kumar are merged yielding Nandakumar. Or Raghu and Nathan are merged yielding Raghunathan. How does that work? i have never heard of this. i’ve heard of merging names but not merging the patryonimic. … I don’t think it’s true in India, ML Vasanthakumari and RK Narayan are spinning whirls of ash. It’s true of thamizh names.

By: Tim May

Tim May — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:12:52 +0000

Arabic names are complex. They’re composed of a fairly large number of elements, including patronymics and whatever the opposite of patronymics is (“father of …” – filionymic?). Originally, there were no surnames as such, and different elements have become surnames in different cases. This Languagehat post provides an overview and links to more detailed accounts.

By: Matt Weiner

Matt Weiner — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:47:49 +0000

(I should add, I think it very unlikely that I will ever try to hyphenate my last name with anyone. I once dated a woman named Myers, which seemed like it could’ve lead to an especial disaster, as students of American lunchmeat can attest.)

By: Matt Weiner

Matt Weiner — Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:45:46 +0000

Alf—Ashley, like Courtney and Shannon, didn’t use to be mostly female—there’s Ashley whatsizname in Gone with the Wind, and there is a current NFL player named Ashley Ambrose I think (as well as a couple of Courtneys and of course Shannon Sharpe). So this could be a case of not doing your research in quite enough depth, like Ford Prefect in the Hitchhiker’s Guide. novalis—How do you get those names by combining “Hargittai” with “von Hardenburg”? :-) I’ve thought that the really egalitarian method would be to hyphenate the last names of the male-line and female-line descent.