Comments on: The Sociology of Blood and Guts http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:04:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: des http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20979 des Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:13:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20979 Hagens appears to have just been <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3497306.stm">descandalled</a> <p> <blockquote> Gunther von Hagens was accused in several press reports last year of using bodies from China and Kyrgyzstan. <p> But prosecutors in Heidelberg, Germany, said the corpses had been sold legally by institutions such as hospitals. </p></blockquote> This is in the Beeb's "entertainment" section...</p> Hagens appears to have just been descandalled

Gunther von Hagens was accused in several press reports last year of using bodies from China and Kyrgyzstan.

But prosecutors in Heidelberg, Germany, said the corpses had been sold legally by institutions such as hospitals.

This is in the Beeb’s “entertainment” section…

]]> By: Kieran Healy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20978 Kieran Healy Wed, 10 Mar 2004 04:59:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20978 Mrs T - no strong thoughts on von Hagens, beyond the feeling that while he's clearly a showman, it's a pretty good show. I missed the allegations that he'd sourced some bodies from Chinese executions. Mrs T – no strong thoughts on von Hagens, beyond the feeling that while he’s clearly a showman, it’s a pretty good show. I missed the allegations that he’d sourced some bodies from Chinese executions.

]]> By: politicaobscura http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20977 politicaobscura Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:25:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20977 A couple of thoughts: It is important to recognize that the donation of organs is different from the donation of tissue or body parts for research (as in UCLA). Organs are recovered from a brain dead patient who is on a ventilator (the patient is dead, but the organs are being profused with oxygenated blood). The organs are allocated based on scientific, computerized formulas to those who have been waiting longest (in the case of lungs and kidneys) or who are the sickest (as for hearts and livers). These organs do not need to be processed and are generally used "as is". Almost all donated tissue, on the other hand, is take from folks who have suffered cardiac death and have been already brought to the morgue or medical examiners office. Almost anyone can be a tissue donor (unlike organ donation which reguires a very specific kind of head injury to occur). Tissue is always processed before use (sterilizations, freeze drying, reshaping, etc.) As this becomes more and more expensive and complicated, most of the patents on the processes are owned by for-profit companies. Unless the US government is interested in spending $35 million to create a tissue processing lab, all advances in the future are likely to continue to come from the for-profit arena. That might sound bad in the abstract, but wait until your child needs a heart valve transplant and then decide if you want a valve preserved with a process 25 years old or one that is state of the art. As for whole body donation, almost without exception the types of people who make a whole body donation don't care one bit what happens to their physical parts so long as it helps someone. It appears the lawyers involved on behalf of some of the families in the UCLA scandal might be claiming families being traumatized by bodies being "cut up", but it is unlikely that those who actually donate themselves to science cared much if they were cut up by first year medical students or if their joints were used to help orthopedic physicians learn more about their trade. As for the person who posted above that they were afraid what might happen to them in a hospital if they became an organ donor, I say, "grow up". The idea of people in comas being killed for their organs is Hollywood foolishness, watching someone waste away with liver disease or Cystic Fibrosis is REAL life... A couple of thoughts: It is important to recognize that the donation of organs is different from the donation of tissue or body parts for research (as in UCLA). Organs are recovered from a brain dead patient who is on a ventilator (the patient is dead, but the organs are being profused with oxygenated blood). The organs are allocated based on scientific, computerized formulas to those who have been waiting longest (in the case of lungs and kidneys) or who are the sickest (as for hearts and livers). These organs do not need to be processed and are generally used “as is”. Almost all donated tissue, on the other hand, is take from folks who have suffered cardiac death and have been already brought to the morgue or medical examiners office. Almost anyone can be a tissue donor (unlike organ donation which reguires a very specific kind of head injury to occur). Tissue is always processed before use (sterilizations, freeze drying, reshaping, etc.) As this becomes more and more expensive and complicated, most of the patents on the processes are owned by for-profit companies. Unless the US government is interested in spending $35 million to create a tissue processing lab, all advances in the future are likely to continue to come from the for-profit arena. That might sound bad in the abstract, but wait until your child needs a heart valve transplant and then decide if you want a valve preserved with a process 25 years old or one that is state of the art. As for whole body donation, almost without exception the types of people who make a whole body donation don’t care one bit what happens to their physical parts so long as it helps someone. It appears the lawyers involved on behalf of some of the families in the UCLA scandal might be claiming families being traumatized by bodies being “cut up”, but it is unlikely that those who actually donate themselves to science cared much if they were cut up by first year medical students or if their joints were used to help orthopedic physicians learn more about their trade. As for the person who posted above that they were afraid what might happen to them in a hospital if they became an organ donor, I say, “grow up”. The idea of people in comas being killed for their organs is Hollywood foolishness, watching someone waste away with liver disease or Cystic Fibrosis is REAL life…

]]> By: Zizka http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20976 Zizka Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:38:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20976 Here in Oregon the state medical examiner was fired for selling organs after autopsies. As I recall, he "harvested" very small organs such as thyroids that wouldn't be missed at a funeral. he used the rather small amount of money earnedm on staff parties, etc. From a positive point of view, the interesting thing is the large number of cadaver body parts which are capable of being helpful to surviving people. The problems that have emerged weren't there when cadavers were only good for skeletons and anatomy dissection. Here in Oregon the state medical examiner was fired for selling organs after autopsies. As I recall, he “harvested” very small organs such as thyroids that wouldn’t be missed at a funeral. he used the rather small amount of money earnedm on staff parties, etc. From a positive point of view, the interesting thing is the large number of cadaver body parts which are capable of being helpful to surviving people. The problems that have emerged weren’t there when cadavers were only good for skeletons and anatomy dissection.

]]> By: Eric Russell http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20975 Eric Russell Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:05:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20975 Harper's magazine had a long report by Annie Cheney about the human-remains trade just this month. It's been a couple of weeks since I read it, but as I recall the gist of it was that while it is technically prohibited to profit from the brokering of human remains, brokers are allowed to recoup their expenses, and by padding those expenses they can make a very good living. So good that many, like Mr. Reid, are tempted to stretch the bounds of legality. I think one of the figures cited was that you can buy a body for $20,000 and, if you have an anatomist that knows how to "disarticulate" bodies, sell off the parts for as much as $200,000. Unfortunately, the article's not available online, but you can look at the cover of the issue here: http://harpers.org/Newsstand2004-03.html Harper’s magazine had a long report by Annie Cheney about the human-remains trade just this month. It’s been a couple of weeks since I read it, but as I recall the gist of it was that while it is technically prohibited to profit from the brokering of human remains, brokers are allowed to recoup their expenses, and by padding those expenses they can make a very good living. So good that many, like Mr. Reid, are tempted to stretch the bounds of legality. I think one of the figures cited was that you can buy a body for $20,000 and, if you have an anatomist that knows how to “disarticulate” bodies, sell off the parts for as much as $200,000. Unfortunately, the article’s not available online, but you can look at the cover of the issue here: http://harpers.org/Newsstand2004-03.html

]]> By: Russell Arben Fox http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20974 Russell Arben Fox Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:17:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20974 Kieran, This is why God (or the Dialectic) created the blogosphere--so I can read (and spend about 40 minutes tracking down links associated with) posts like this. Fascinating stuff. I doubt I'd ever spent more than 15 minutes thinking about organ donation previously in my whole life. Good work, and good luck with the book. Your point about the difference between industrialization and commodification is one that I could probably make good use of in many different contexts. Kieran, This is why God (or the Dialectic) created the blogosphere—so I can read (and spend about 40 minutes tracking down links associated with) posts like this. Fascinating stuff. I doubt I’d ever spent more than 15 minutes thinking about organ donation previously in my whole life. Good work, and good luck with the book. Your point about the difference between industrialization and commodification is one that I could probably make good use of in many different contexts.

]]> By: Tor http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20973 Tor Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:47:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20973 What scares me about organ donation is not what happens to my organs, but what they do to me while still alive to facilitate the transfer. My understanding, based on tv and articles - so therefore biased towards the 'they're going to KILL YOU' end of the spectrum - is that there are certain chemicals which are often injected that help ease the transfer, but aren't very good for the donor. So if you were in a coma, life support was about to be withdrawn, you would receive the injections - and if you were about to make a sudden recovery, well, you're out of luck. Hospitals can have a tendency to do what is best or easiest for them, rather than what is best for you - something I learned watching my wife give birth, and why I don't trust hospitals enough to be a donor. What scares me about organ donation is not what happens to my organs, but what they do to me while still alive to facilitate the transfer. My understanding, based on tv and articles – so therefore biased towards the ‘they’re going to KILL YOU’ end of the spectrum – is that there are certain chemicals which are often injected that help ease the transfer, but aren’t very good for the donor. So if you were in a coma, life support was about to be withdrawn, you would receive the injections – and if you were about to make a sudden recovery, well, you’re out of luck. Hospitals can have a tendency to do what is best or easiest for them, rather than what is best for you – something I learned watching my wife give birth, and why I don’t trust hospitals enough to be a donor.

]]> By: Ben Hyde http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20971 Ben Hyde Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:02:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20971 Bloody limit cases... http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/000481.html#000481 Bloody limit cases… http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/000481.html#000481

]]> By: Mrs Tilton http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/09/the-sociology-of-blood-and-guts/comment-page-1/#comment-20972 Mrs Tilton Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:33:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1219#comment-20972 Kieran, have you any thoughts, then, on Gunther von Hagens's purchases of the corpses of executed Chinese criminals to be 'plastinated' for his Body Worlds exhibit? Or on v. Hagens more generally? Or perhaps you posted these back when the permanent atmosphere of semi-scandal surrounding v. Hagens spiked into real scandal a few weeks back, and I simply missed them. Kieran, have you any thoughts, then, on Gunther von Hagens’s purchases of the corpses of executed Chinese criminals to be ‘plastinated’ for his Body Worlds exhibit? Or on v. Hagens more generally? Or perhaps you posted these back when the permanent atmosphere of semi-scandal surrounding v. Hagens spiked into real scandal a few weeks back, and I simply missed them.

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