Comments on: Madrid Bombings

By: Colin

Colin — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:57:16 +0000

Gary, Real911 is beyond “trolldom”. So far beyond as to be risible. I read the message quickly, tried to place its particular idiocies (i.e. Aryan Nations? Lyndon LaRouche?… clearly one of those rightwing conspiracy mongers who are profiting from the anti-”zionist” climate generated by certain Indymedia elements of the left), and thought of replying but was immediately overcome by the fatigue I mentioned above. Was it worth the effort? I was already engaged with some stubbornly purblind commenters on another thread dealing with the Madrid bombings (where, as well, “the answer” is Israel!) and finally judged that this particular thread was dormant. Why waste the outrage? It was only by chance that I looked back in here and saw your comment. As for Norman’s prescription of “a robust expression of contempt”, I thought of it, struggled to find the right formula, and finally reasoned that the words I had chosen were not nearly robust enough, and would possibly end up praising Real911 with far too faint a damn. Very depressing…

By: Henry

Henry — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:39:55 +0000

I’ve been out of contact for the last couple of days and hadn’t seen the real911 post. if I had, I would probably have taken my usual recourse when dealing with anti-Semitic conspiracy mongering trolls, and deleted it. As it stands, seeing that a number of people have responded effectively, I’ll leave it stand.

By: Gary Farber

Gary Farber — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:20:02 +0000

“Another possibility is that of those reading the comments, almost no one bothered to read the “Real 911” because it was recognized for what it is: crap.” I find that a bit unlikely, as one has to read it to recognize it. “…the exercise often becomes very tedious, and there is a certain fatigue that sometimes sets in when confronted once again by the same old calumnies, naked or disguised.” Well, yes, no kidding. I am not, myself, energized by it, nor do I slap myself upside the head and say, “oh, boy, a fresh opportunity to address the notion that Jews blahblahblah! I have never before encountered this original position! How exciting!” “As Norman Geras put it: We have to combat the falsehoods, I don’t doubt it. All of them. But I’m also aware of an impulse within myself that, by trying to counter these things, you just play a game that’s imposed on you by someone else… There’s something to be said for just responding to these prejudicial notions with a robust expression of contempt.” Excellent words. I, however, find it extremely disturbing when people leave it to others to respond with those robust expressions of contempt. I’m a bit more disturbed when I’m—in this sea of wise and caring people—the only “other.” It has the curious effect of making one feel a bit alone. Funny, that. I take, however mistakenly—and I leap to stress, beyond acknowledge, that my reponse is a product of classic fear and worry and is not entirely rational—silence as acceptance. At least, indifference. One need not engage a troll seriously, and therefore feed it, by acting as if it is making arguments worth refuting, to take note that disgusting and offensive and dangerous assertions have been put forth, and to label them as such. Particlarly when smoother and more subtle versions of the same argument are deemed acceptable discourse. (Note that I did not engage the troll with a futile attempt to argue or refute; I didn’t let the comments stand as apparently unworthy of note, either.) I back Norman’s wise words. I was distressed to see no one respond as he called for.

By: jm

jm — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:56:24 +0000

El humo de estas bombas huele mal ¿Quién tiene que ganar mas en estas elecciones, tras el asesinato? Me niego a darles mi voto. Viva España

By: Colin

Colin — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:24:21 +0000

Gary, there is no point in replying to such blatant wingnut messages. It’s the more subtle and camouflaged ones that are far more dangerous; those are the kind that might prompt me to reply. But I must confess that the exercise often becomes very tedious, and there is a certain fatigue that sometimes sets in when confronted once again by the same old calumnies, naked or disguised. As Norman Geras put it: We have to combat the falsehoods, I don’t doubt it. All of them. But I’m also aware of an impulse within myself that, by trying to counter these things, you just play a game that’s imposed on you by someone else… There’s something to be said for just responding to these prejudicial notions with a robust expression of contempt.

By: Keith M Ellis

Keith M Ellis — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:09:47 +0000

Gary: sometimes one doesn’t feed the trolls because one knows it’s best, or simply out of “hands off” disgust. Another possibility is that of those reading the comments, almost no one bothered to read the “Real 911” because it was recognized for what it is: crap.

By: Gary Farber

Gary Farber — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:27:28 +0000

General query: how is it that, over seven and a half hours after the post from “Real 911,” no one else finds it worth commenting on? It’s just normal, acceptable, discourse? How is that?

By: Gary Farber

Gary Farber — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:24:13 +0000

“The answer, ofcourse, is Isreal.” It usually is.

By: Antoni Jaume

Antoni Jaume — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:31:52 +0000

drf, tu discurso sobra. DSW

By: DRF

DRF — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:25:19 +0000

Independientemente de que grupo sea responsable de las matanzas del 11-M. Del analisis de la situacion se desprenden conclusiones inquietantes: Nos han pillado en bragas. -Han matado a 200 seres inocentes, podrian haber sido 1000 si hubiesen querido. -Pueden volver a hacer algo similar o peor cuando les venga en gana -La ferocidad y crueldad de nuestros enemigos no tiene limites ni fronteras Una de las maximas prioridades europeas en los proximos meses deberia ser tratar de identificar nuestros puntos debiles y admitir que hemos cometido errores en materia de seguridad y de lucha antiterrorista. Simplemente, no hemos estado a la altura de las circunstancias. No hemos sabido apreciar las implicaciones del nuevo orden mundial emergente tras los atentados del 11 de Septiembre. Mientras en Europa ciertos individuos se preocupaban sobre la situacion de los terroristas encarcelados en Guantanamo y supuestos recortes a las libertades personales, otros terroristas han planeado y ejecutado la matanza de Madrid. Europa carece, a dia de hoy, de mecanismos de seguridad antiterrorista adecuados para prevenir atentados y para perseguir, neutralizar y eliminar a los terroristas y a aquellos que les apoyan o protegen. Cuanto antes reconozcamos nuestros errores en materia de seguridad y de actitud, antes seremos capaces de vencer en la guerra global contra el terrorismo. Europa debe de adoptar una actitud dinamica y decidida para neutralizar la amenaza terrorista. EEUU ha decidio adoptar esta linea de actuaccion. La guerra contra el terrorismo no deberia ser responsabilidad exclusiva de los EEUU. Las victimas del terrorismo son globales: Nueva York, Bali, Mombasa, Baghdad, Jerusalen, Moscu, Jakarta, Casablanca, Riyadh, Estanbul, Madrid… Europa no encontrara en el mundo un mejor aliado que los EEUU. Juntos hemos destruidos a los dos grandes demonios del siglo 20, el nazismo y el comunismo. Juntos tambien podemos ganar la batalla contra uno de los demonios del nuevo milenio, el terrorismo. La otra opcion seria adoptar una actitud pasivadialogante-pacifista a veces rayando el derrotismo, del estilo “contra el terrorismo no se puede hacer nada”. La linea de actuacion que dicha corriente de pensamiento parecen sugerir es la de seguir como hasta ahora y culparnos a nosotros mismos por lo ocurrido, o mejor aun, culpar a EEUU por la existencia del terrorismo. Su estrategia para el futuro se resume a esperar que los terroristas entren en razon y asumir que aun en toda su crueldad, los terroristas nunca llegaran a utilizar un mecanismo atomico contra civiles. En la guerrra contra el fanatismo la serenidad, la pasividad, el pacifismo, el derrotismo y la actitud dialogante son recetas seguras para la victoria del terror. El mejor homenaje que Europa puede hacer a las victimas de la matanza de Madrid es poner a disposicion de nuestras fuerzas de seguridad los instrumentos necesarios que les permitan atrapar a los responsables de las matanzas, aplicarles un castigo de proporciones equivalentes al crimen cometido y evitar que algo similar vuelva a suceder. Un bueno punto de comienzo seria la revision de la todavia no aprobada constitucion europea. Salir a la calle con las manos pintadas de blanco y en alto como diciendo “yo no he sido” no es la forma mas efectiva de luchar contra el terrrorismo ni creo que conforte mucho a las victimas de la barbarie. Berlin, 13 de Marzo del 2004

By: Real 911

Real 911 — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:52:40 +0000

Is it a conincidence that the Madrid bombings occurred exactly 911 days since 9/11 ? Just think for a moment. Who what is the likely significance of this, who is likely to be behind this, and more importantly, who is likely to benefit from this. Just as the “War on Terror” seems to be waning due to the Iraq debacle, those forces that want to continue the fight against so called Islamic Terrorism and Al-Qaeda are having to take a back seat. So, what better way to galvanise world opinion against the Muslim World than to create a reign of fear amongst the Europeans. This cloud of fear was successfully galvanised and implanted into the American psyche on 911. Now, the same forces are implanting the same psychology of fear amongst the Europeans by creating a 911 event (exactly 911 days after the original 9/11). This way, any further invasions against Muslim lands will not be opposed by the Europeans in any UN resolution. In the next few days, expect to hear that the terrorists were either from Syria, Iran or Pakistan. Soon, a UN resolution will be passed and the Western crusade will continue into one of these countries. So, who are these forces that are driving the agenda and controlling the hearts and minds of the peoples of the world (except the Muslim world)? The answer, ofcourse, is Isreal. They are the only benefactors of this so called war against Islamic terrorism. They want the world to go after the above mentioned countries. They will stop at nothing to achieve their goals. When will the peoples of the world realise who the real power players are in the world. Such catastrophic events don’t just occur. They are planned well in advance with an ultimate end goal. With spectacular explosions around the world, the zionists have managed to manipulate mainstream christian opinion (The West) and have created an alliance against Islam. This is not a good situation for world harmony between peoples of the world.

By: john bragg

john bragg — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:07:26 +0000

RE: The IRA and ethnic cleansing—in its more lunatic Third Worldist moments in the 1970’s and maybe into the 1980’s, “Brits Out” was read by at least some IRA supporters (my mother) as meaning the Unionists would have to “return” to Great Britain.

By: aardvark

aardvark — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:06:01 +0000

Vintieul – what Brian Doss said. That’s exactly the logic I had in mind, keeping in mind the respective popularity of a hard line against the Basques and the Iraq war in Spain.

By: Dave F

Dave F — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:50:47 +0000

Keith, I think you may prove largely right. It may be significant that the police “discovered” the damning van after a “tip-off from a concerned resident”:. Hmmm. However, an interesting sidelight is the astonishing decision by the Security Council yesterday to immediately condemn ETA by name unanimously. That was before these possible Islamist terror connections came to light, but officials at the UN noted that it was highly unusual to namie a specific perpetrator in any case. A US official cast doubt on the e-mail claim, saying it had been established the group involved had claimed other attacks falsely and probably consisted of a few people with a fax and a computer. There is a small but chilling possibility that since the explosive was a “signature” type used by ETA, conceivably an ETA cell provided materiel for the attack by an al-Qaeda-linked group on ETA’s turf. Either an ETA operation or a such co-operative scenario would probably kill off any remaining grassroots support for the separatist cause, however. Many thousands of Basques marched in protest at the bombings last night in the autonomous region.

By: Keith M Ellis

Keith M Ellis — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:40:12 +0000

The titadine is the strongest evidence I’ve heard that it was ETA; along with some similar, previous incidents definitely linked to ETA. The change of modus operandi is well explained by the known fact that ETA is dwindling and desperate. But what of the van? The claims made by Al-Masri are dubious because they made similar claims about, for example, the blackouts in the US last year. However, the van—if what we’ve heard is true—does seem to point to Al Qaeda or someone trying to pin the blame on Al Qaeda. All told, my current sense is that it’s still 80% most likely ETA. And that the international embrace of an Al Qaeda link represents projection and lack of intimate familiarity with the history of ETA. Still, it’s provocative that ETA will likely be badly hurt by the backlash against this (and they haven’t claimed responsibility!), while Al Qaeda’s interests would be greatly helped. That alone points pretty strongly to Al Qaeda. Yet, lots of terrorist groups perform atrocities that harden public opinion against them, especially when they’re desperate.