Comments on: Miss Pronuncition http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Fri, 25 May 2012 17:21:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: KenL http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22409 KenL Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:57:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22409 john g (from oz?) writes: "A minor point of interest in the same list is that Barry and berry are not homonyms in Australian English, although the difference is undetectable to American listeners. The same is true of Mary, marry and merry." Undetectable in much of America, but not all. There's still plenty folk along the eastern seaboard that make the distinction between Mary, marry, and merry. And in Philly at least, the Barry/berry distinction is still alive and well. That's the problem with Aussies, by the way: prone to sweeping generalizations :) john g (from oz?) writes: “A minor point of interest in the same list is that Barry and berry are not homonyms in Australian English, although the difference is undetectable to American listeners. The same is true of Mary, marry and merry.” Undetectable in much of America, but not all. There’s still plenty folk along the eastern seaboard that make the distinction between Mary, marry, and merry. And in Philly at least, the Barry/berry distinction is still alive and well. That’s the problem with Aussies, by the way: prone to sweeping generalizations :)

]]> By: language hat http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22408 language hat Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:32:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22408 John: I'm relieved you agree the list is rubbish. And I completely agree with krebs. "I wish everybody would just talk, without making a bunch of assumptions": Amen! John: I’m relieved you agree the list is rubbish. And I completely agree with krebs. “I wish everybody would just talk, without making a bunch of assumptions”: Amen!

]]> By: krebs cycle http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22407 krebs cycle Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:00:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22407 clew-- Well, that's cool. Maybe I'm letting my reverse class prejudice show through. I'm eerily sandwiched between the working class and the highly educated. My spoken vocabulary is a mix of both worlds, and it pisses me off when someone assumes my opinions are less valuable because I talk like a working class person or when people think I'm being haughty because I use too many 50 cent words. I wish everybody would just talk, without making a bunch of assumptions. So maybe I'm too sensitive. I agree that a basic understanding of semantics is important, and knowing lots of words is helpful in thinking clearly. I just don't see the importance, for example, of correcting someone who says aide when they mean assistant or sociological when they mean social. But I guess if you do it in a spirit of fun and well-wishing, and the correctee can tell, more power to you both. clew—Well, that’s cool. Maybe I’m letting my reverse class prejudice show through. I’m eerily sandwiched between the working class and the highly educated. My spoken vocabulary is a mix of both worlds, and it pisses me off when someone assumes my opinions are less valuable because I talk like a working class person or when people think I’m being haughty because I use too many 50 cent words. I wish everybody would just talk, without making a bunch of assumptions. So maybe I’m too sensitive. I agree that a basic understanding of semantics is important, and knowing lots of words is helpful in thinking clearly. I just don’t see the importance, for example, of correcting someone who says aide when they mean assistant or sociological when they mean social. But I guess if you do it in a spirit of fun and well-wishing, and the correctee can tell, more power to you both.

]]> By: clew http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22406 clew Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:33:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22406 krebs cycle, I might accept your whole third paragraph but think your fourth one goes too far; semantic ability is as necessary as the other tools. And my experience is directly unlike yours, as I hang out with people who parse for fun, and we trust each other to mean well in our corrections. And we all have the jackdaw pronunciations of people who read more than we talk, to get back to the original topic. krebs cycle, I might accept your whole third paragraph but think your fourth one goes too far; semantic ability is as necessary as the other tools. And my experience is directly unlike yours, as I hang out with people who parse for fun, and we trust each other to mean well in our corrections. And we all have the jackdaw pronunciations of people who read more than we talk, to get back to the original topic.

]]> By: krebs cycle http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22405 krebs cycle Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:49:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22405 John: <i> some native speakers are semantically better than others. </i> I gotta go with Language Hat's social heirarchy theory on this one. To say that some speakers are "semantically better" than others is technically true, of course. But so what? Good conversation requires many types of knowledge, including knowledge of the topic, of how to converse politely and with empathy toward the listener, of how to explain one's perspective, etc. Knowledge of semantics usually correlates with formal education, but these other conversational skills may not. Beyond the level required for understanding, I would argue that one's semantic kung fu is much less important than one's skill with some of these other conversational tools. In my experience, conversation is almost always better served when empathy dominates superior symantic knowledge. In other words, telling one's conversational partner that they have made a semantic error is almost never neccessary, and for the most part adds only the following to the conversation: "nya, nya, nya, nya nya, I know more than you do", a put-down guaranteed to re-enforce heirarchy, if ever there was one. John: some native speakers are semantically better than others. I gotta go with Language Hat’s social heirarchy theory on this one. To say that some speakers are “semantically better” than others is technically true, of course. But so what? Good conversation requires many types of knowledge, including knowledge of the topic, of how to converse politely and with empathy toward the listener, of how to explain one’s perspective, etc. Knowledge of semantics usually correlates with formal education, but these other conversational skills may not. Beyond the level required for understanding, I would argue that one’s semantic kung fu is much less important than one’s skill with some of these other conversational tools. In my experience, conversation is almost always better served when empathy dominates superior symantic knowledge. In other words, telling one’s conversational partner that they have made a semantic error is almost never neccessary, and for the most part adds only the following to the conversation: “nya, nya, nya, nya nya, I know more than you do”, a put-down guaranteed to re-enforce heirarchy, if ever there was one.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22404 John Quiggin Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:19:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22404 mischa - as I implied earlier, by "recent" I mean from the 19th century onwards. The pretentious error "methodology" for "method" would naturally have arisen as soon as the word "methodology" existed, but its ony in the last couple of decades that it's become so widespread as to make resistance futile. D^2. For reasons that aren't quite clear, "methodological" hasn't made the same shift as "methodology". So an academic speaker might well say something like "The methodology in this paper is poor. The Quiggin-Davies regression estimator is biased and inconsistent" but if someone said "I disagree with this paper for methodological reasons", I would still expect this to be followed by a reference to Popper or something of the kind. mischa – as I implied earlier, by “recent” I mean from the 19th century onwards. The pretentious error “methodology” for “method” would naturally have arisen as soon as the word “methodology” existed, but its ony in the last couple of decades that it’s become so widespread as to make resistance futile. D^2. For reasons that aren’t quite clear, “methodological” hasn’t made the same shift as “methodology”. So an academic speaker might well say something like “The methodology in this paper is poor. The Quiggin-Davies regression estimator is biased and inconsistent” but if someone said “I disagree with this paper for methodological reasons”, I would still expect this to be followed by a reference to Popper or something of the kind.

]]> By: Mischa http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22403 Mischa Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:50:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22403 John, Not sure what you mean by "recent," but the OED seems to show the gradual shift (study of method generally-->study of methods of particular discipline-->body of methods of a discipline-->set of methods used in a particular work), and not in the last couple of decades. <blockquote>a1856 W. HAMILTON Lect. Metaphysics (1860) III. iii. 56 Such treatises are..only methodologies of the art or science to which they relate. 1902 Dial (Chicago) 32 79/1 Bibliographical methodology (i.e. methods of compilation and recording). 1932 W. E. D. ALLEN Hist. Georgian People vii. 91 Alp-Arslan and his commanders were tacticians who evolved a new methodology in mediæval Asiatic war.<blockquote></blockquote></blockquote> John, Not sure what you mean by “recent,” but the OED seems to show the gradual shift (study of method generally—>study of methods of particular discipline—>body of methods of a discipline—>set of methods used in a particular work), and not in the last couple of decades.
a1856 W. HAMILTON Lect. Metaphysics (1860) III. iii. 56 Such treatises are..only methodologies of the art or science to which they relate. 1902 Dial (Chicago) 32 79/1 Bibliographical methodology (i.e. methods of compilation and recording). 1932 W. E. D. ALLEN Hist. Georgian People vii. 91 Alp-Arslan and his commanders were tacticians who evolved a new methodology in mediæval Asiatic war.

]]> By: Mischa http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22402 Mischa Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:44:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22402 dsquared: But then, I *can't* say, "Your paper is no good for methodical reasons," at least not without meaning something very different... dsquared: But then, I can’t say, “Your paper is no good for methodical reasons,” at least not without meaning something very different…

]]> By: Zizka http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22401 Zizka Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:57:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22401 Re Quiggin's first statement: I think that at any given time there are certain words and usages which are markers of certain kinds of bad writing, so you end up rejecting those usages. But they're not causal, so if otherwise good writers end up adopting the markers, that's the end of the story. Similiarly for usages which are markers for illiteracy in a given area. Prescriptivism is institutionalized in primary and secondary English departments and in editing departments of print publications, but always loses in the long run. I do have an issue with L.H. here, that from a non-linguistic, social point of view, official, prescriptivist written languages have a dimension of existence and power that local, unofficial, non-prescriptive unwritten languages don't. And a lot of minor-language militance ends up demanding the same things that the favored languages have: standardization, a printed form, recognition by government, etc. So rather than defending the plurality of language, what you end up having done is just moved one unit from the "local dialect" category to the "offical language" category, with the official languages still dominant. Ivan Illych has written some amazing things about the rise of prescriptivism: "In the Vineyard of the Text" and "Vernacular Values" in the book "Shadow Work". Re Quiggin’s first statement: I think that at any given time there are certain words and usages which are markers of certain kinds of bad writing, so you end up rejecting those usages. But they’re not causal, so if otherwise good writers end up adopting the markers, that’s the end of the story. Similiarly for usages which are markers for illiteracy in a given area. Prescriptivism is institutionalized in primary and secondary English departments and in editing departments of print publications, but always loses in the long run. I do have an issue with L.H. here, that from a non-linguistic, social point of view, official, prescriptivist written languages have a dimension of existence and power that local, unofficial, non-prescriptive unwritten languages don’t. And a lot of minor-language militance ends up demanding the same things that the favored languages have: standardization, a printed form, recognition by government, etc. So rather than defending the plurality of language, what you end up having done is just moved one unit from the “local dialect” category to the “offical language” category, with the official languages still dominant. Ivan Illych has written some amazing things about the rise of prescriptivism: “In the Vineyard of the Text” and “Vernacular Values” in the book “Shadow Work”.

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22400 dsquared Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:22:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22400 "Methodology" is a particular example of a semantic slip that, I think, reinforces John's point that these things infect our thinking. If I say "Your paper is no good for methodological reasons", I presumably mean "I criticise your method, because it is one of a class of methods that I am opposed to because of my views on methodology". In other words, a legitimate point badly expressed. However, it then tempts me into saying "Crime is high in South London for sociological reasons", when I mean "social", and there is no acceptable paraphrase of this. “Methodology” is a particular example of a semantic slip that, I think, reinforces John’s point that these things infect our thinking. If I say “Your paper is no good for methodological reasons”, I presumably mean “I criticise your method, because it is one of a class of methods that I am opposed to because of my views on methodology”. In other words, a legitimate point badly expressed. However, it then tempts me into saying “Crime is high in South London for sociological reasons”, when I mean “social”, and there is no acceptable paraphrase of this.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22399 John Quiggin Mon, 22 Mar 2004 04:48:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22399 Language Hat - I agree with you that the list is rubbish, and my points apply only marginally to pronunciation, mainly when mispronunciation is associated with semantic error. In response to your point about hierarchy, the semantic errors I object to most strongly (for example, 'impact', 'refute', 'methodology') typically originate with users fairly high in the social hierarchy and are spread through imitation. I don't know if this phenomenon has been studied but it's evidence against any claim that prescriptivism invariably reinforces social hierarchy. Keith, I don't derive my views on "methodology" from etymology or formation (again, I don't think I gave you any reason to suppose this) but from the recent history of the words. We had two separate words, "methodology" and "method", and people started using the first as a pretentious synonym for the second, with a resulting loss of clarity. This usage has now become so widespread that there is no point in objecting to it, but it's still an impoverishment of the language. In other cases, for example "refute" and "rebut", the distinction is still worth defending, and would be even if it turned out that both had the same Latin root (I don't know about this, and don't much care). Language Hat – I agree with you that the list is rubbish, and my points apply only marginally to pronunciation, mainly when mispronunciation is associated with semantic error. In response to your point about hierarchy, the semantic errors I object to most strongly (for example, ‘impact’, ‘refute’, ‘methodology’) typically originate with users fairly high in the social hierarchy and are spread through imitation. I don’t know if this phenomenon has been studied but it’s evidence against any claim that prescriptivism invariably reinforces social hierarchy. Keith, I don’t derive my views on “methodology” from etymology or formation (again, I don’t think I gave you any reason to suppose this) but from the recent history of the words. We had two separate words, “methodology” and “method”, and people started using the first as a pretentious synonym for the second, with a resulting loss of clarity. This usage has now become so widespread that there is no point in objecting to it, but it’s still an impoverishment of the language. In other cases, for example “refute” and “rebut”, the distinction is still worth defending, and would be even if it turned out that both had the same Latin root (I don’t know about this, and don’t much care).

]]> By: liz http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22398 liz Mon, 22 Mar 2004 04:45:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22398 ON-NECK-TEA-COO. I laughed out loud. Several of the pronunciations (ath a lete, fillum) were common in my father's generation (or circle)--Stockton, CA, leaving there around 1937 for Palo Alto. Also, that thing you lock with : pad e lock. Dr. Language is completely missing the fun of sussing out a speaker's origins by their unique words. And "pernickety". I ask you. Don't get in a snicket. ON-NECK-TEA-COO. I laughed out loud. Several of the pronunciations (ath a lete, fillum) were common in my father’s generation (or circle)—Stockton, CA, leaving there around 1937 for Palo Alto. Also, that thing you lock with : pad e lock. Dr. Language is completely missing the fun of sussing out a speaker’s origins by their unique words. And “pernickety”. I ask you. Don’t get in a snicket.

]]> By: Keith M Ellis http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22397 Keith M Ellis Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:07:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22397 Laguage Hat — I think it's interesting that although your training as a linguist pretty much requires you to be a descriptivist, your oft-mentioned primary motivation for opposing prescriptivism is that it is a tool of perpetuating injustice. Though quite concerned with social justice myself, I find that my increasing annoyance at prescriptivism has much more to do with the rational incoherency of it. Laguage Hat — I think it’s interesting that although your training as a linguist pretty much requires you to be a descriptivist, your oft-mentioned primary motivation for opposing prescriptivism is that it is a tool of perpetuating injustice. Though quite concerned with social justice myself, I find that my increasing annoyance at prescriptivism has much more to do with the rational incoherency of it.

]]> By: language hat http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22396 language hat Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:32:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22396 <i>occasional middle-school teacher sensibilities</i> Or, more to the point, copy-editor sensibilities. Which is how I earn my living. I know the "correct" forms, I know when I prefer to use them, and I know how they're used as a bludgeon to reinforce social hierarchy. Which is why I smite the hierarchs every chance I get. John: So what do you think of the list? occasional middle-school teacher sensibilities Or, more to the point, copy-editor sensibilities. Which is how I earn my living. I know the “correct” forms, I know when I prefer to use them, and I know how they’re used as a bludgeon to reinforce social hierarchy. Which is why I smite the hierarchs every chance I get. John: So what do you think of the list?

]]> By: Keith M Ellis http://crookedtimber.org/2004/03/21/miss-pronuncition/comment-page-1/#comment-22395 Keith M Ellis Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:27:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1279#comment-22395 Correction: "defined" in my first sentence above should either be "determined" or "solely defined". Correction: “defined” in my first sentence above should either be “determined” or “solely defined”.

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