Comments on: Psychology and Sociology

By: Howard

Howard — Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:23:26 +0000

Well, as I vaguely recall (was it Aristotle? Plato? Needless to say, I’m not a philospher), isn’t one of the requirements of a philosophical life sufficient leisure? Women today may be freer to define themselves than in the past, but I don’t seriously hear “sufficient leisure” as one of the options women are privileged to explore.

By: Visiting Lawyer

Visiting Lawyer — Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:18:55 +0000

Law, and particularly, litigation (my area)are high on aggression. I’ve litigated in a number of subject matter areas. It’s my (personal, non-scientific) observation that women litigators are much more prevalent in newer fields, even when those fields require scientific & mathematical expertise (e.g., environmental law). They are much less common in older fields (e.g., banking). This has always suggested to me that the obstacles women face in the latter are structural, not inherent. On good days, I hope that things will change in banking litigation as the old bulls die off & are replaced. On bad days, I notice how little has changed since I started out in banking litigation 25 years ago.

By: Monica

Monica — Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:26:28 +0000

I think the lack of actual impact on day-to-day lives explanation has something to it, as that’s something that young women in particular seem very concerned with; but it needs to be combined with a theory of how job choices are conditioned on previous training, to wit: women learn languages and study biology because both of these things seem applicable to immediate human experience. (Biology has feminized in the last decade.) If you do the former, and discover you’re good at it, it sets you up to go to grad school in linguistics. If you do the latter and discover you’re good at it, it sets you up to go to grad school in cognitive science (Kieran—does CS really have a lot of women? What are the other pathways into it?). But when you’re 17 or 18, philosophy just seems like a roomful of people trying to prove how smart they are, and you think that you’re put on earth to do more important things than that. By the time you figure out that nothing you do is going to be very important, your career decisions have been made.

By: John Quiggin

John Quiggin — Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:25:42 +0000

Does the sociology/psychology distinction work? Last time this topic came up, I argued (in relation to economics) that part of the explanation was that women came out of high school with a weaker background in maths, and a distaste for mathematical/formal reasoning. This doesn’t have much effect at the undergraduate level where verbal skills are sufficient for success, but gets more problematic in graduate school and beyond. Is this a sociological or psychological explanation? The sociological factors pushing girls away from high school maths are more than adequate for an explanation of the observed outcomes, so I don’t think there’s any need to invoke psychological differences between girls and boys beginning high school. On the other hand, if we are concerned with what happens at universities, this explanation is effectively identical to the “psychological” explanation criticised by Kieran.

By: Gavin

Gavin — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:52:22 +0000

A couple of problems with the logic of all this. First, Part of the issue here is that any form of psychology makes a poor sociology. doesn’t make too much sense. What if I say, part of the issue here is that any form of carpentry makes a poor plumbing. Of course! It’s a different discipline. Second, the two explanations adduced as to the limits of psychology are really just ‘individual psychology’ explanations as the post later admits. There is nothing in psychology more broadly, or indeed in economics, that necessarily neglects fine details of social structure etc. Perhaps Kieran needs to find some different psychologists to talk to? Equally, Daniel needs to find some real economists to take on over globollocks, rather than a bunch of WSJ/NYT hacks. I think that there is a big element of old-fashioned discipline rivalry at work in CT. All the CTers have their own (usually overlapping) fields, but seem very unwilling to admit theories/evidence from rival fields, especially those that are/claim to be more scientific. As a defence against the imperialism of economics et al that is all very well, but don’t take it too far please. Although, to be fair, if you ever want to read a lame set of explanations about female participation in economics, just have a look at the Economic Journal symposium on the topic a couple of years ago. Complete rubbish.

By: bridget

bridget — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:19:03 +0000

Maybe because philosopy is kind of a professional sport. The fans are mostly insane, no team is perfect, it’s always changing and the new guys have no respect for the old guard. The statistics of years past have little to do with how the team’s going to turn out this year. Grab a puppy or a child and play. Any questions?

By: Kieran Setiya

Kieran Setiya — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:16:20 +0000

The comparison with linguistics suggests that technicality/agression are not sufficient to deter women; it doesn’t follow that they are not part of the cause in the case of philosophy. I have no idea what the cause is. But it’s fair to say that those who appeal to “institutional factors” rarely specify what they have in mind. (Above remarks about young professors seem relevant here.) So this isn’t a case of good institutional explanation v. bad psychological explanation, but of incomplete/maybe bad psychological explanation v. incomplete institutional explanation. I don’t mean to suggest confidence in any of these explanations, just that I’d like to hear more about both of them. Does anyone know of any serious research on this?

By: Ray

Ray — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:19:51 +0000

Thinking about the philosophy instructors my undergraduate female friends first encountered (at one campus a Platonist who invariably used rape as his example of a normal impulse we aren’t allowed to express, and at the other campus an inarticulate math-geek logical positivist), I’m also inclined to blame transient social factors rather than the essences of the discipline or the sex.

By: Kieran Healy

Kieran Healy — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 18:22:31 +0000

(salary, societal prestige, actual impact on people’s day-to-day lives) … compared to other fields (law) that require significant amounts of education. In this regard, they might be making a wise economic choice. Except a Ph.D in linguistics doesn’t strike me as scoring that much higher than philosophy on the items you mention. Another factor might be the age (and growth) of the field. A younger field, with more younger professors, might have a higher proportion of women. That’s plausible. And also a social fact about the organization of occupations rather than a psychological fact about individual dispositions or talents.

By: Barry

Barry — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:38:48 +0000

Another factor might be the age (and growth) of the field. A younger field, with more younger professors, might have a higher proportion of women.

By: Michael Cholbi

Michael Cholbi — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:50:42 +0000

I’m not sure I see a problem internal to philosophical practice (style of argument, etc.). Rather, I suspect that many women see that the benefits of entering academia are fairly modest (salary, societal prestige, actual impact on people’s day-to-day lives) and the costs high (half a decade of postgraduate education, etc.), compared to other fields (law) that require significant amounts of education. In this regard, they might be making a wise economic choice. Incidentally, those who sit on graduate admissions committees in philosophy departments have told me on many occasions that there is a serious dearth of qualified women candidates and that competition for these candidates can be fierce. -MC

By: nnyhav

nnyhav — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:39:35 +0000

The synergy goes well beyond what you’ve cited, whether Pinker’s or Brooks’ “Just So” stories … TBurke’s ruminations (and sensitivity to initial conditions) also seems pertinent. I happened to stumble on this in Karlinsky’s intro to the Nabokov-Wilson letters: “It so happens that while there have been major Russian women poets, some of whom were also able playwrights, there have been until very recently no novels in Russian written by women who rise above the level of the kind of women’s pulp fiction that Nabokov satirized in his story ‘The Admiralty Spire.’”

By: Bill Carone

Bill Carone — Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:34:57 +0000

Thanks, Kieran!