Comments on: Culture Matters http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:09:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: pepi http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26225 pepi Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:34:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26225 <i>while she and her fellow ISMers liked to call themselves “peace activists”, it is obvious that were little more than anti-Israel agitators. In no way does this justify her death (which apparently was an accident), but nor does it make her any sort of martyr.</i> kendall, what I don't understand is why she has to be made into either a martyr or a treacherous and dangerous anti-Israel agitator. She burned a US flag, so what? she was anti-Israel, so what? She didn't kill anybody or committed any crimes, apparently, otherwise, she'd have been arrested, no? If it was an accident it was simply an accident and Corrie is neither a martyr nor a traitor but a victim of an accident, end of story. I can't imagine the IDF would consider her such a danger that they would set out to purposefully kill her. Clearly there are people who think that. Clearly, by logic, from that premise, they must think her killing was a murder. I don't share such view, nor have time for any martyr-building of any sort, but neither do I appreciate that people who want to object to that murder theory and martyrification would stoop so low as to consider her as criminal as a terrorist just because of the ideas she supported or expressed! Both extremes belong to the very same fanatical thinking. Hostages are another matter. Yes the Japanese may have been naive. That's a bit different from implying they staged their kidnapping, isn't it? or that they got what they deserved? or asked for it? why on earth would you say "<i>Did they expect their abductors to be rational and welcome them as supporters?</i>"? They didn't expect a thing because they didn't expect to be kidnapped, doh! There's many companies and individuals who went to Iraq with various jobs. I understand the Japanese government had dissuaded people from going there. But that's not equal to saying "if you go there, expect to be tortured and don't make a fuss about it". On the other hand, I can partly understand the Japanese reactions of anger at that hostage situation because, even unwillingly, even if their only fault was naivete, the kidnapping caused problems to the government, yes. But again, I don't see any comparison to Corrie. Corrie went to a war zone with a specific political intent and specific role as an activist. Everybody has political opinions so of course it's likely some of the Japanese hostages had their own too. So what? Is that enough to compare them? Being kidnapped while doing your job - journalist, NGO worker, film-maker - and being killed during an activist protest are something quite different. I see no crime in either choice, though. That's the one thing those situations have in common. while she and her fellow ISMers liked to call themselves “peace activists”, it is obvious that were little more than anti-Israel agitators. In no way does this justify her death (which apparently was an accident), but nor does it make her any sort of martyr. kendall, what I don’t understand is why she has to be made into either a martyr or a treacherous and dangerous anti-Israel agitator. She burned a US flag, so what? she was anti-Israel, so what? She didn’t kill anybody or committed any crimes, apparently, otherwise, she’d have been arrested, no? If it was an accident it was simply an accident and Corrie is neither a martyr nor a traitor but a victim of an accident, end of story. I can’t imagine the IDF would consider her such a danger that they would set out to purposefully kill her. Clearly there are people who think that. Clearly, by logic, from that premise, they must think her killing was a murder. I don’t share such view, nor have time for any martyr-building of any sort, but neither do I appreciate that people who want to object to that murder theory and martyrification would stoop so low as to consider her as criminal as a terrorist just because of the ideas she supported or expressed! Both extremes belong to the very same fanatical thinking. Hostages are another matter. Yes the Japanese may have been naive. That’s a bit different from implying they staged their kidnapping, isn’t it? or that they got what they deserved? or asked for it? why on earth would you say “Did they expect their abductors to be rational and welcome them as supporters?“? They didn’t expect a thing because they didn’t expect to be kidnapped, doh! There’s many companies and individuals who went to Iraq with various jobs. I understand the Japanese government had dissuaded people from going there. But that’s not equal to saying “if you go there, expect to be tortured and don’t make a fuss about it”. On the other hand, I can partly understand the Japanese reactions of anger at that hostage situation because, even unwillingly, even if their only fault was naivete, the kidnapping caused problems to the government, yes. But again, I don’t see any comparison to Corrie. Corrie went to a war zone with a specific political intent and specific role as an activist. Everybody has political opinions so of course it’s likely some of the Japanese hostages had their own too. So what? Is that enough to compare them? Being kidnapped while doing your job – journalist, NGO worker, film-maker – and being killed during an activist protest are something quite different. I see no crime in either choice, though. That’s the one thing those situations have in common.

]]> By: Alex Fradera http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26224 Alex Fradera Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:27:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26224 I post about this <a href="http://www.farmerversusfox.blogspot.com/">here</a>; I don't have the benefit of extensive time in Japan but it seems to me that this is a peculiarly cultural thing and not a purely political manipulation (and when I say 'peculiarly cultural' I'm not suggesting the response could only have been so in Japan, just that its surprisingness to us - to me - can be explicated without recourse to media brainwashing). Since posting I have had a lengthy email exchange with a Japanese friend, himself young, independent minded and having previously lived in Europe; he bolstered the impression that this is a general wave of anger, not limited to media outlets and government spokesman. Part of the reason being that this was seen as wayward and irresponsible actions without thought for the consequences, "like parents get angry when their child did stupid and dangerous things that might risk his/her life", as he puts it. I talk about it in the post... I post about this here; I don’t have the benefit of extensive time in Japan but it seems to me that this is a peculiarly cultural thing and not a purely political manipulation (and when I say ‘peculiarly cultural’ I’m not suggesting the response could only have been so in Japan, just that its surprisingness to us – to me – can be explicated without recourse to media brainwashing). Since posting I have had a lengthy email exchange with a Japanese friend, himself young, independent minded and having previously lived in Europe; he bolstered the impression that this is a general wave of anger, not limited to media outlets and government spokesman. Part of the reason being that this was seen as wayward and irresponsible actions without thought for the consequences, “like parents get angry when their child did stupid and dangerous things that might risk his/her life”, as he puts it. I talk about it in the post…

]]> By: Kendall http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26223 Kendall Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:36:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26223 Pepi, I sympathize with some of the Japanese ex-hostages. One (an 18-year-old!) was simply there to help Iraqi street kids but at least some of the others (in all, five were abducted in two groups) were apparently there for purely political (anti-war) reasons. Did they expect their abductors to be rational and welcome them as supporters? They were all quite naive. As was Rachel Corrie. Her correspondence reveals her to be a young woman with at least some of her heart in the right place but her head clearly elsewhere. Like many of the other ISMers, she regarded the Israeli Army as "the enemy" but figured that young IDF soldiers would defer to "westerners" in any confrontation. She never entertained the thought that her actions might encourage terrorists (at least a couple of foreign suicide bombers did use the ISM as cover to enter Israel), and while she and her fellow ISMers liked to call themselves "peace activists", it is obvious that were little more than anti-Israel agitators. In no way does this justify her death (which apparently was an accident), but nor does it make her any sort of martyr. Pepi, I sympathize with some of the Japanese ex-hostages. One (an 18-year-old!) was simply there to help Iraqi street kids but at least some of the others (in all, five were abducted in two groups) were apparently there for purely political (anti-war) reasons. Did they expect their abductors to be rational and welcome them as supporters? They were all quite naive. As was Rachel Corrie. Her correspondence reveals her to be a young woman with at least some of her heart in the right place but her head clearly elsewhere. Like many of the other ISMers, she regarded the Israeli Army as “the enemy” but figured that young IDF soldiers would defer to “westerners” in any confrontation. She never entertained the thought that her actions might encourage terrorists (at least a couple of foreign suicide bombers did use the ISM as cover to enter Israel), and while she and her fellow ISMers liked to call themselves “peace activists”, it is obvious that were little more than anti-Israel agitators. In no way does this justify her death (which apparently was an accident), but nor does it make her any sort of martyr.

]]> By: pepi http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26222 pepi Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:57:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26222 <i>As for the Japanese ‘hostages’. What became of the early whispers that the whole thing was a publicity stunt?</i> Oh please... You realize you're talking of being taken hostage by terrorists, not going on an MTV show? Honestly it takes some nerve to go from simply acknowledging they took their risks in going there in the first place, to showing such contempt and hate. I don't understand the Corrie comparisons either. Or why is it so important that she burned a flag and which flag. Is it worthy of death penalty to burn a flag? It seems to have been an accident anyway, no? So why the talk of deserving what she got? She knew she was in a war zone. She may have supported things you don't support. But that's not enough in any legal system to condemn anyone. I don't understand the whole controversy there. As for the Japanese ‘hostages’. What became of the early whispers that the whole thing was a publicity stunt? Oh please… You realize you’re talking of being taken hostage by terrorists, not going on an MTV show? Honestly it takes some nerve to go from simply acknowledging they took their risks in going there in the first place, to showing such contempt and hate. I don’t understand the Corrie comparisons either. Or why is it so important that she burned a flag and which flag. Is it worthy of death penalty to burn a flag? It seems to have been an accident anyway, no? So why the talk of deserving what she got? She knew she was in a war zone. She may have supported things you don’t support. But that’s not enough in any legal system to condemn anyone. I don’t understand the whole controversy there.

]]> By: Kendall http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26221 Kendall Tue, 27 Apr 2004 05:06:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26221 Docg, The photos of Rachel Corrie burning the Stars and Stripes are available at numerous sites on the Internet, some pro- and some anti-Israel. I picked the link that offered two photos at a single url and which had relatively large and clear reproductions? Are you suggesting that the photos aren't genuine? They were shot by an Arab photographer for AP and were published by Yahoo News, which is where I first saw them. They no longer seem to be (publicly) available on Yahoo (perhaps they may still be, via their archives, for a fee), but they can be readily viewed at a wide variety of pro-Palestinian sites. You would do well to do your homework before embarking on any Indymedia-style conspiracy mongering. Personally, I am a moderate leftwinger with great sympathy for the Palestinian national cause. But I also support Israel's right to exist (does that make me "pro-Zionist"?) and I have nothing but contempt for naive ISM "peace activists" who have often ended up "shielding" the homes of terrorists (not to mention their apologists among weblog commenters). Docg, The photos of Rachel Corrie burning the Stars and Stripes are available at numerous sites on the Internet, some pro- and some anti-Israel. I picked the link that offered two photos at a single url and which had relatively large and clear reproductions? Are you suggesting that the photos aren’t genuine? They were shot by an Arab photographer for AP and were published by Yahoo News, which is where I first saw them. They no longer seem to be (publicly) available on Yahoo (perhaps they may still be, via their archives, for a fee), but they can be readily viewed at a wide variety of pro-Palestinian sites. You would do well to do your homework before embarking on any Indymedia-style conspiracy mongering. Personally, I am a moderate leftwinger with great sympathy for the Palestinian national cause. But I also support Israel’s right to exist (does that make me “pro-Zionist”?) and I have nothing but contempt for naive ISM “peace activists” who have often ended up “shielding” the homes of terrorists (not to mention their apologists among weblog commenters).

]]> By: Sean http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26220 Sean Tue, 27 Apr 2004 02:36:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26220 Not sure I agree with your "she did nothing to deserve her violent death" docg. She persisted in laying down in front of a bulldozer - no? As for the Japanese 'hostages'. What became of the early whispers that the whole thing was a publicity stunt? Not sure I agree with your “she did nothing to deserve her violent death” docg. She persisted in laying down in front of a bulldozer – no? As for the Japanese ‘hostages’. What became of the early whispers that the whole thing was a publicity stunt?

]]> By: DocG http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26219 DocG Mon, 26 Apr 2004 22:35:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26219 Kendall, I'd be more convinced of your opinions of Rachel Corrie if you used evidence that wasn't from a pro-Zionist website. Obviously, they have some vested interests as far as protestors in Israel go. And further, I don't care what kind of flag she burned or what sort of protest she engaged in--I see no evidence she ever committed or advocated violence against anyone. She did nothing to deserve her violent death. Kendall, I’d be more convinced of your opinions of Rachel Corrie if you used evidence that wasn’t from a pro-Zionist website. Obviously, they have some vested interests as far as protestors in Israel go. And further, I don’t care what kind of flag she burned or what sort of protest she engaged in—I see no evidence she ever committed or advocated violence against anyone. She did nothing to deserve her violent death.

]]> By: John Isbell http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26218 John Isbell Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:17:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26218 Thank you, skyeboat. And a happy Sunday to you. Thank you, skyeboat. And a happy Sunday to you.

]]> By: WillieStyle http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26217 WillieStyle Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:16:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26217 <blockquote>The Japanese are right. These hostages risked a major inernational incident to get journalistic goodies for themselves and engage in sentimental do-good work. We’re the fools. We lionize anyone who gets into trouble, </blockquote> I had no idea there were so many terrible people in the world. These hostages were taking huge personal risks to help total strangers in dire need. Furthermore, they were aiding us in a cause that many on the right (including presumably the goverment of Japan) assure us is the most important effort in the defeat of terrorism. It is especially disgusting when partisans of the war party - themselves totally unwilling to take personal risks for the cause - belittle the selflessness of these hostages. Almost makes you wish there was a hell.
The Japanese are right. These hostages risked a major inernational incident to get journalistic goodies for themselves and engage in sentimental do-good work. We’re the fools. We lionize anyone who gets into trouble,
I had no idea there were so many terrible people in the world. These hostages were taking huge personal risks to help total strangers in dire need. Furthermore, they were aiding us in a cause that many on the right (including presumably the goverment of Japan) assure us is the most important effort in the defeat of terrorism. It is especially disgusting when partisans of the war party – themselves totally unwilling to take personal risks for the cause – belittle the selflessness of these hostages. Almost makes you wish there was a hell.

]]> By: Skyeboat http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26216 Skyeboat Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:14:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26216 Shorter John Isbell: If a fib falls in the Crooked Timber forest and no one hears its collapse, is it still standing? Oops, someone did hear... Shorter John Isbell: If a fib falls in the Crooked Timber forest and no one hears its collapse, is it still standing? Oops, someone did hear…

]]> By: h. e. baber http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26215 h. e. baber Sun, 25 Apr 2004 04:53:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26215 The Japanese are right. These hostages risked a major inernational incident to get journalistic goodies for themselves and engage in sentimental do-good work. We're the fools. We lionize anyone who gets into trouble, from Rodney King, a chronic alchololic whose subsequent run-ins with the cops regularly get into the papers, to Baby Jessica who won fame and fortune by falling down a well at the age of 18 months. No one asked Baby Jessica's parents why they happened to have an open shaft in their back yard or why they let her play in the area without supervision and no one worried about the cost of pulling her out and Rodney King's mot, "Why can't we all get along" has entered the popular wisdom literature. The Japanese are right. These hostages risked a major inernational incident to get journalistic goodies for themselves and engage in sentimental do-good work. We’re the fools. We lionize anyone who gets into trouble, from Rodney King, a chronic alchololic whose subsequent run-ins with the cops regularly get into the papers, to Baby Jessica who won fame and fortune by falling down a well at the age of 18 months. No one asked Baby Jessica’s parents why they happened to have an open shaft in their back yard or why they let her play in the area without supervision and no one worried about the cost of pulling her out and Rodney King’s mot, “Why can’t we all get along” has entered the popular wisdom literature.

]]> By: kendall http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26214 kendall Sun, 25 Apr 2004 04:20:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26214 John, Rachel Corrie's "flag" may have been homemade, but it is clearly the Stars and Stripes and she has clearly set it ablaze. I don't think her contorted face indicates she was celebrating July 4th. Here are two shots taken by AP photographer Khalil Hamra and published on Yahoo News in February 2003: http://www.honestreporting.com/graphics/articles/corrie.jpg John, Rachel Corrie’s “flag” may have been homemade, but it is clearly the Stars and Stripes and she has clearly set it ablaze. I don’t think her contorted face indicates she was celebrating July 4th. Here are two shots taken by AP photographer Khalil Hamra and published on Yahoo News in February 2003: http://www.honestreporting.com/graphics/articles/corrie.jpg

]]> By: peter ramus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26213 peter ramus Sun, 25 Apr 2004 04:15:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26213 Slightly longer, then. I make a concordance between the acts of these young women and the archetype as set by Antigone; she's the one famously responsible for her own doom in going against the edicts of authority. All these stories lead back to the same doomed woman, and serve as my own preferred framing device, in spite of the <i>okami</i> recommended by the New York Times. Slightly longer, then. I make a concordance between the acts of these young women and the archetype as set by Antigone; she’s the one famously responsible for her own doom in going against the edicts of authority. All these stories lead back to the same doomed woman, and serve as my own preferred framing device, in spite of the okami recommended by the New York Times.

]]> By: John Isbell http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26212 John Isbell Sun, 25 Apr 2004 03:59:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26212 I've seen that Rachel Corrie photograph, and it wasn't an American flag, nor did the photo offer any evidence she was leading a demonstration, against whomever. It is however undeniable that she wasn't taken hostage. Shorter Kendall: No, frankly I can't be bothered. I’ve seen that Rachel Corrie photograph, and it wasn’t an American flag, nor did the photo offer any evidence she was leading a demonstration, against whomever. It is however undeniable that she wasn’t taken hostage. Shorter Kendall: No, frankly I can’t be bothered.

]]> By: Kendall http://crookedtimber.org/2004/04/24/culture-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-26211 Kendall Sun, 25 Apr 2004 03:30:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1463#comment-26211 <i>I guess I’m always prepared to take my Antigones as I find them, however disposed the details leading to their equally tragic end.</i> Shorter Peter Ramus: My whole argument is crappy but if I lay on the postmodernism thick enough maybe no one will notice. I guess I’m always prepared to take my Antigones as I find them, however disposed the details leading to their equally tragic end. Shorter Peter Ramus: My whole argument is crappy but if I lay on the postmodernism thick enough maybe no one will notice.

]]>