Comments on: [Expletive Deleted] http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 00:11:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: MQ http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30705 MQ Mon, 07 Jun 2004 04:21:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30705 "You’re absolutley correct mq. Quantity demanded doesn’t decline when the price rises! Those silly libertarians!" My point was that the demand elasticity for essential goods tends to be rather low (in absolute value, that is). Not high enough to remove massive profit rates from manipulating prices in a market with large economies of scale and therefore few effective providers. Perhaps you should actually move on to chapter 2 of your intro to economics textbook before you start spouting off. “You’re absolutley correct mq. Quantity demanded doesn’t decline when the price rises! Those silly libertarians!” My point was that the demand elasticity for essential goods tends to be rather low (in absolute value, that is). Not high enough to remove massive profit rates from manipulating prices in a market with large economies of scale and therefore few effective providers. Perhaps you should actually move on to chapter 2 of your intro to economics textbook before you start spouting off.

]]> By: Warbaby http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30704 Warbaby Sat, 05 Jun 2004 01:47:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30704 Yeah, right. "Arbitraged," as in "Bush has really arbitraged the US for the next decade." And it wasn't just Enron. They couldn't do this alone. The memos that discuss the "death star" and "richochet" make it very plain that other companies were absolutely necessary to the price-rigging. Two that were named were Puget Sound Energy and BC Hydro. Here's a funny story about that. When the electric spot prices jumped in late 2000, in the Puget Sound region all the oil refineries, aluminum mills and at least one pulp mill went off the grid on the same day. Each one of these industrial users drew as much power as a large city. So they all pulled the plug and shut down. Thereby shedding a huge amount of load. Did prices change at all? Nope. They then brought in large portable generators (the size of semi trailers) and installed huge generator farms. So when those that started back up got going, they were still off the grid. And the "rolling blackouts" in California continued. With no change in spot prices. Supply and demand don't apply to cartel pricing. Get it? Yeah, right. “Arbitraged,” as in “Bush has really arbitraged the US for the next decade.” And it wasn’t just Enron. They couldn’t do this alone. The memos that discuss the “death star” and “richochet” make it very plain that other companies were absolutely necessary to the price-rigging. Two that were named were Puget Sound Energy and BC Hydro. Here’s a funny story about that. When the electric spot prices jumped in late 2000, in the Puget Sound region all the oil refineries, aluminum mills and at least one pulp mill went off the grid on the same day. Each one of these industrial users drew as much power as a large city. So they all pulled the plug and shut down. Thereby shedding a huge amount of load. Did prices change at all? Nope. They then brought in large portable generators (the size of semi trailers) and installed huge generator farms. So when those that started back up got going, they were still off the grid. And the “rolling blackouts” in California continued. With no change in spot prices. Supply and demand don’t apply to cartel pricing. Get it?

]]> By: Tonetheman http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30703 Tonetheman Fri, 04 Jun 2004 15:08:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30703 This was not just a few bad apples. These morons were part of the lie that was the "energy" crisis for CA. Rolling blackouts with fat suits getting rich while the rest of CA sweated like pigs in the heat. Energy is not a problem for CA. Criminals hiding amongst the energy industry and the government are. This was not just a few bad apples. These morons were part of the lie that was the “energy” crisis for CA. Rolling blackouts with fat suits getting rich while the rest of CA sweated like pigs in the heat. Energy is not a problem for CA. Criminals hiding amongst the energy industry and the government are.

]]> By: susan b. anthony http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30702 susan b. anthony Fri, 04 Jun 2004 11:43:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30702 "My favorite libertarian argument is that they should have deregulated retail prices. So consumers would have held off buying electricity until the price went down?" You're absolutley correct mq. Quantity demanded doesn't decline when the price rises! Those silly libertarians! “My favorite libertarian argument is that they should have deregulated retail prices. So consumers would have held off buying electricity until the price went down?” You’re absolutley correct mq. Quantity demanded doesn’t decline when the price rises! Those silly libertarians!

]]> By: Paul http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30701 Paul Fri, 04 Jun 2004 04:40:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30701 <i>if you don’t confess, we’ll force you to hire a lawyer who’ll suck all of your money out of you, and since defending such a complex case takes more money than you have you’ll lose anyway</i> So? What are you bitching about, that this isn't <i>fair</i>? if you don’t confess, we’ll force you to hire a lawyer who’ll suck all of your money out of you, and since defending such a complex case takes more money than you have you’ll lose anyway So? What are you bitching about, that this isn’t fair?

]]> By: MQ http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30700 MQ Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:17:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30700 California foolishly allowed sellers with large amounts of monopoly power to go unregulated, so they manipulated the market by withholding supply, which is how you take advantage of monopoly power. They needed to use their buy side power to lock the companies into long term contracts at reasonable (low) prices. My favorite libertarian argument is that they should have deregulated retail prices. So consumers would have held off buying electricity until the price went down? Right. The power companies had market power; they used it. You can't shop your way out of that. You think California state government wasn't trying to? Xavier: "natural supply and demand shifts"??? What a coincidence that we have only seen them in California during the deregulation period. California foolishly allowed sellers with large amounts of monopoly power to go unregulated, so they manipulated the market by withholding supply, which is how you take advantage of monopoly power. They needed to use their buy side power to lock the companies into long term contracts at reasonable (low) prices. My favorite libertarian argument is that they should have deregulated retail prices. So consumers would have held off buying electricity until the price went down? Right. The power companies had market power; they used it. You can’t shop your way out of that. You think California state government wasn’t trying to? Xavier: “natural supply and demand shifts”??? What a coincidence that we have only seen them in California during the deregulation period.

]]> By: MQ http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30699 MQ Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:17:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30699 California foolishly allowed sellers with large amounts of monopoly power to go unregulated, so they manipulated the market by withholding supply, which is how you take advantage of monopoly power. They needed to use their buy side power to lock the companies into long term contracts at reasonable (low) prices. My favorite libertarian argument is that they should have deregulated retail prices. So consumers would have held off buying electricity until the price went down? Right. The power companies had market power; they used it. You can't shop your way out of that. You think California state government wasn't trying to? Xavier: "natural supply and demand shifts"??? What a coincidence that we have only seen them in California during the deregulation period. California foolishly allowed sellers with large amounts of monopoly power to go unregulated, so they manipulated the market by withholding supply, which is how you take advantage of monopoly power. They needed to use their buy side power to lock the companies into long term contracts at reasonable (low) prices. My favorite libertarian argument is that they should have deregulated retail prices. So consumers would have held off buying electricity until the price went down? Right. The power companies had market power; they used it. You can’t shop your way out of that. You think California state government wasn’t trying to? Xavier: “natural supply and demand shifts”??? What a coincidence that we have only seen them in California during the deregulation period.

]]> By: Xavier http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30698 Xavier Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:29:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30698 "It seems that CA made the mistake of trusting the private sector when applying a private sector solution." The argument for privatization has nothing to do with trusting the private sector to act in the public interest. Privatization is setting up a legal regime where private and public interests coincide. Corporations are amoral economic actors. That's not how California's energy regulations worked. I'm not at all convinced that the energy traders did anything illegal. Whenever energy prices spike politicians accuse the energy industry of illegal activity because the only alternatives are that the government is at fault (which politicians obviously don't want to admit to) or it's a simple case of natural supply or demand shifts (which the public doesn't want to hear; they want to blame somebody). “It seems that CA made the mistake of trusting the private sector when applying a private sector solution.” The argument for privatization has nothing to do with trusting the private sector to act in the public interest. Privatization is setting up a legal regime where private and public interests coincide. Corporations are amoral economic actors. That’s not how California’s energy regulations worked. I’m not at all convinced that the energy traders did anything illegal. Whenever energy prices spike politicians accuse the energy industry of illegal activity because the only alternatives are that the government is at fault (which politicians obviously don’t want to admit to) or it’s a simple case of natural supply or demand shifts (which the public doesn’t want to hear; they want to blame somebody).

]]> By: JP http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30697 JP Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:57:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30697 How about this. The traders were bad actors <i>and</i> California was stupid. There. Can't we all just get along? How about this. The traders were bad actors and California was stupid. There. Can’t we all just get along?

]]> By: minor pagan http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30696 minor pagan Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:39:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30696 I too struggle with that age old dilemma. When I see innocent rate-payers being gouged to the tune of billions of dollars due to the stupidity of legislators and the greed of politically connected utilities and traders, I am forced to choose - sympathy or schadenfreude? I too struggle with that age old dilemma. When I see innocent rate-payers being gouged to the tune of billions of dollars due to the stupidity of legislators and the greed of politically connected utilities and traders, I am forced to choose – sympathy or schadenfreude?

]]> By: Jeremy Osner http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30695 Jeremy Osner Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:15:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30695 "Being Abu Ghraibed" WTF? “Being Abu Ghraibed” WTF?

]]> By: bull http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30694 bull Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:21:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30694 So someone pleaded guilty after being Abu Ghraibed – if you don’t confess, we’ll force you to hire a lawyer who’ll suck all of your money out of you, and since defending such a complex case takes more money than you have you’ll lose anyway, and then since you didn’t cooperate we’ll send you away for a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng time. So why don’t you just cooperate? They got their confession, and -- surprise, surprise -- he “has promised to point prosecutors toward others involved in manipulating prices.” I’m not impressed. So someone pleaded guilty after being Abu Ghraibed – if you don’t confess, we’ll force you to hire a lawyer who’ll suck all of your money out of you, and since defending such a complex case takes more money than you have you’ll lose anyway, and then since you didn’t cooperate we’ll send you away for a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng time. So why don’t you just cooperate? They got their confession, and—surprise, surprise—he “has promised to point prosecutors toward others involved in manipulating prices.” I’m not impressed.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30693 abb1 Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:56:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30693 What they did was illegal. Not "taking advantage", but committing crimes. Manipulating prices is illegal. <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24664-2003Jan7?language=printer">Enron Investigators Expand Probe To California Energy Trading </a> Washington Post Staff Writers Wednesday, January 8, 2003; Page E01 <blockquote> ... Enron's former chief West Coast trader, Timothy N. Belden, pleaded guilty in October to federal fraud charges. He admitted that he helped rig electricity prices there through strategies with code names such as "Death Star" and "ricochet" and has promised to point prosecutors toward others involved in manipulating prices. ... </blockquote> What they did was illegal. Not “taking advantage”, but committing crimes. Manipulating prices is illegal. Enron Investigators Expand Probe To California Energy Trading Washington Post Staff Writers Wednesday, January 8, 2003; Page E01
… Enron’s former chief West Coast trader, Timothy N. Belden, pleaded guilty in October to federal fraud charges. He admitted that he helped rig electricity prices there through strategies with code names such as “Death Star” and “ricochet” and has promised to point prosecutors toward others involved in manipulating prices. …

]]> By: Paul http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30692 Paul Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:49:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30692 <i>extremely intelligent, quick, nervy cowboys.</i> Then you must be one of their escaped steers. Mooo. Nice bull. extremely intelligent, quick, nervy cowboys. Then you must be one of their escaped steers. Mooo. Nice bull.

]]> By: Extradite the Neocons http://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/03/expletive-deleted/comment-page-1/#comment-30691 Extradite the Neocons Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:25:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1665#comment-30691 <i> The latter — taking advantage, avoiding </i> I think they called it fucking. Hard to tell from the typing. From their own self-characterization, it seems the culprits would be likely to disagree with your characterization. Then again, the little guy is just here to get fucked, so it's not like they were doing anything they (or Microsoft or Intel) don't do every day. Fuck whom you can to get what you can simply because you can. You can buy good PR later, as if you care. The latter — taking advantage, avoiding I think they called it fucking. Hard to tell from the typing. From their own self-characterization, it seems the culprits would be likely to disagree with your characterization. Then again, the little guy is just here to get fucked, so it’s not like they were doing anything they (or Microsoft or Intel) don’t do every day. Fuck whom you can to get what you can simply because you can. You can buy good PR later, as if you care.

]]>