Comments on: State power and torture http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:54:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: mc http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35231 mc Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:19:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35231 Ps - I wish I hadn't followed your link, Matt, and read that line from Seymour Hersch about the "soundtrack of the boys shrieking". I hadn't read about that yet. I didn't think there could be anything a lot more shocking than what had already come out. Ps – I wish I hadn’t followed your link, Matt, and read that line from Seymour Hersch about the “soundtrack of the boys shrieking”. I hadn’t read about that yet. I didn’t think there could be anything a lot more shocking than what had already come out.

]]> By: mc http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35230 mc Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:12:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35230 Matt: ah, but that's not the original ABBA is it? not that I would mind them coming back for real. :) It'd be one of the least horrible of 70's comebacks. If you were angry when you wrote that post on your blog, it only added to the incisiveness and it being so spot on. I have the opposite problem. Brevity forsakes me altogether when I get irritated. As someone will likely notice in other threads, er... Matt: ah, but that’s not the original ABBA is it? not that I would mind them coming back for real. :) It’d be one of the least horrible of 70’s comebacks. If you were angry when you wrote that post on your blog, it only added to the incisiveness and it being so spot on. I have the opposite problem. Brevity forsakes me altogether when I get irritated. As someone will likely notice in other threads, er…

]]> By: Matt Weiner http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35229 Matt Weiner Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:59:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35229 mc--<a href="http://www.mamma-mia.com/">Tremble!</a> (note--just because I'll do anything for a cheap laugh does not mean I am not angry about torture. I am perhaps <a href="http://mattweiner.net/blog/archives/000298.html">too angry</a> for my own good.) mc—Tremble! (note—just because I’ll do anything for a cheap laugh does not mean I am not angry about torture. I am perhaps too angry for my own good.)

]]> By: mc http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35228 mc Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:34:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35228 I just thought, there are people who can actually be excused for not being that shocked at the news that the CIA used torture. In countries like Chile or Argentina or El Salvador, it's just no news at all. Meanwhile, <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53077-2004Jul15.html">they found Pinochet's money</a>... <a href="http://babelfish.altavista.com/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lanacion.com.ar%2F04%2F07%2F16%2Fdx_618961.asp&lp=es_en&tt=url">in a US bank</a>. Oh what surprise. CIA torture, Pinochet, oil prices going up... Now we only need an ABBA reunion and then it's 70's revival full on. I just thought, there are people who can actually be excused for not being that shocked at the news that the CIA used torture. In countries like Chile or Argentina or El Salvador, it’s just no news at all. Meanwhile, they found Pinochet’s money… in a US bank. Oh what surprise. CIA torture, Pinochet, oil prices going up… Now we only need an ABBA reunion and then it’s 70’s revival full on.

]]> By: rea http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35227 rea Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:45:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35227 "This Side, of course, is guilty of the same hypocrisy." No, "This Side" doesn't torture people, generally speaking . . . “This Side, of course, is guilty of the same hypocrisy.” No, “This Side” doesn’t torture people, generally speaking . . .

]]> By: mc http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35226 mc Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:33:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35226 Sadly, for some people, "American" takes precedence over "human" or "individual". So, when "American" interests are affected, human rights don't apply. It's not even that subliminal. Sadly, for some people, “American” takes precedence over “human” or “individual”. So, when “American” interests are affected, human rights don’t apply. It’s not even that subliminal.

]]> By: jdw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35225 jdw Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:13:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35225 _Why? Are people from other countries not really soverign individuals in the same way that people from your own country are?_ They're signatories to a different social contract. I suppose the mystical, Ayn Rand-style libertarians might have a problem with torture, at least logically, but I think they're the ones most likely to enjoy the idea for non-philosophical reasons. Why? Are people from other countries not really soverign individuals in the same way that people from your own country are? They’re signatories to a different social contract. I suppose the mystical, Ayn Rand-style libertarians might have a problem with torture, at least logically, but I think they’re the ones most likely to enjoy the idea for non-philosophical reasons.

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35224 Chris Bertram Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:04:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35224 I think Kieran has it about right here. There are the libertarians, such as Jim Henley and an a very few others, and then there are the libertarianism-for-US-citizens-like-me -but-the-state-ought-to-stomp-on-the-head-of-everyone-else-ists. Sadly, most "libertarians" seem to be of the latter variety. I think Kieran has it about right here. There are the libertarians, such as Jim Henley and an a very few others, and then there are the libertarianism-for-US-citizens-like-me butthe-state-ought-to-stomp-on-the-head-of-everyone-else-ists. Sadly, most “libertarians” seem to be of the latter variety.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35223 bad Jim Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:05:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35223 back in <a href="http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/22/">1984</a> back in 1984

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35222 bad Jim Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:58:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35222 <blockquote>'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia! I don't care what you do to her. Tear her face off, strip her to the bones. Not me! Julia! Not me!'</blockquote> Room 101 isn't particularly instructive for libertarians, since it's essentially their starting point.
‘Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia! I don’t care what you do to her. Tear her face off, strip her to the bones. Not me! Julia! Not me!’
Room 101 isn’t particularly instructive for libertarians, since it’s essentially their starting point.

]]> By: lenq http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35221 lenq Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:24:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35221 i am concerned about torture. yes. it, however, escapes me that there are a great deal of people out there with a large concern beyond basic self-interest and issues on the fringe of that self-interest. sometimes i get stuck onto msn.com or yahoo.com and on the 'news' there are articles that are there solely to appeal for the citizen's immediate self interest. the televised news and the class of self-help magazines seem to emphasize that the current advertising strategy is to appeal to the egocentricity of individuals and the companies seem to be doing pretty well with that. it would, therefore, strike me that there's a lot of people out there who would not care about too much between getting out of their soul-sucking jobs and going to bed. and if they happen to be concerned about it. the more common reactions i have heard is that individuals cannot make a difference, but is best left for the administration or the dream of becoming a decision holder in the administration - then they can think about it. kind of comparing themselves with people in the desert who stop thinking of food because there is none. it is great that people on this post seem to care about it. but i'm horribly guilty of having not done anything about it. you have obviously talked about it and raised awareness. what else have you done? i am concerned about torture. yes. it, however, escapes me that there are a great deal of people out there with a large concern beyond basic self-interest and issues on the fringe of that self-interest. sometimes i get stuck onto msn.com or yahoo.com and on the ‘news’ there are articles that are there solely to appeal for the citizen’s immediate self interest. the televised news and the class of self-help magazines seem to emphasize that the current advertising strategy is to appeal to the egocentricity of individuals and the companies seem to be doing pretty well with that. it would, therefore, strike me that there’s a lot of people out there who would not care about too much between getting out of their soul-sucking jobs and going to bed. and if they happen to be concerned about it. the more common reactions i have heard is that individuals cannot make a difference, but is best left for the administration or the dream of becoming a decision holder in the administration – then they can think about it. kind of comparing themselves with people in the desert who stop thinking of food because there is none. it is great that people on this post seem to care about it. but i’m horribly guilty of having not done anything about it. you have obviously talked about it and raised awareness. what else have you done?

]]> By: Kieran Healy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35220 Kieran Healy Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:48:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35220 <i>I don’t think libertarianism is at all incompatible with torturing the people we’re torturing.</i> Why? Are people from other countries not really soverign individuals in the same way that people from your own country are? I don’t think libertarianism is at all incompatible with torturing the people we’re torturing. Why? Are people from other countries not really soverign individuals in the same way that people from your own country are?

]]> By: christopher ball http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35219 christopher ball Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:03:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35219 The real issue isn't why are libertarians so silent, but why <i>everyone</i> is so silent about the US practice of torture. After the NYT reported on 13 May about 'water-boarding' on the front page ("Harsh C.I.A. Methods Cited In Top Qaeda Interrogations"), there was little sustained outcry. Even this blog never mentioned it, best I can tell. The CIA contractor who was indicted for assault in June was prosecuted because he killed an Afghan detainee, one who appears to have been uninvolved in any wrongdoing. But I have never heard the beating of Afghan detainees condemned. The problew was that this poor fellow got killed. Sadly, this confirms the most paranoid views of libertarian extremists. Even the US government might torture you and the only consequences will be getting blogged at. The real issue isn’t why are libertarians so silent, but why everyone is so silent about the US practice of torture. After the NYT reported on 13 May about ‘water-boarding’ on the front page (“Harsh C.I.A. Methods Cited In Top Qaeda Interrogations”), there was little sustained outcry. Even this blog never mentioned it, best I can tell. The CIA contractor who was indicted for assault in June was prosecuted because he killed an Afghan detainee, one who appears to have been uninvolved in any wrongdoing. But I have never heard the beating of Afghan detainees condemned. The problew was that this poor fellow got killed. Sadly, this confirms the most paranoid views of libertarian extremists. Even the US government might torture you and the only consequences will be getting blogged at.

]]> By: Jerome http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35218 Jerome Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:56:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35218 War is horrible, killing is horrible, what makes torture worst than killing? At least you can justify it, you might get vital informations. Before I heard about the torture in Iraq, I knew it was already happening. When you want to win a war, you go for it! When you kill kids and women just because they might carry a bomb, why torturing can't be justified? I know why, it's because war can't be justified. War is horrible, killing is horrible, what makes torture worst than killing? At least you can justify it, you might get vital informations. Before I heard about the torture in Iraq, I knew it was already happening. When you want to win a war, you go for it! When you kill kids and women just because they might carry a bomb, why torturing can’t be justified? I know why, it’s because war can’t be justified.

]]> By: jdw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/07/15/state-power-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-35217 jdw Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:04:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1880#comment-35217 We haven't started torturing citizens yet, have we? I don't think libertarianism is at all incompatible with torturing the people we're torturing. (Not that I'm defending libertarians or sadists; I just don't think it's the least bit confusing that a lot of people are both.) We haven’t started torturing citizens yet, have we? I don’t think libertarianism is at all incompatible with torturing the people we’re torturing. (Not that I’m defending libertarians or sadists; I just don’t think it’s the least bit confusing that a lot of people are both.)

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