Comments on: More Mieville

By: Ben

Ben — Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:08:30 +0000

I think Hobb is an author who incorporates economics in a more realistic sense. I also think a lot of authors being celebrated here have convoluted portrayals of economics in their fantasy worlds, due to the fact that they’re trying to make a modern image fit perfectly with a different sort of economy. Economic analysis of peasant societies or pre-state societies (differing from fantasy world to fantasy world) is a completely different story than early industrialism, capitalism during its heyday, or the Marxist criticisms thereof. Production, reciprocity, and ceremonial redistribution are the breadwinners.

By: Henry

Henry — Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:53:15 +0000

Adam – sorry, you’re right – it’s a while since I read the Andre-Driussi essay. Still, I think that Andre-Driussi’s reading is fundamentally wrongheaded – in part because he’s not very familiar with political theory. If you read Beasts in the context of the Renaissance ‘education of princes’ literature, a rather different set of themes emerge.

By: Adam Stephanides

Adam Stephanides — Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:31:21 +0000

“I dunno if you’ve read the essays in Alice Turner’s Snake Hands – there’s one (by Andre-Driussi I think) that incorrectly denounces Crowley as a neo-Fascist)” No. Andre-Driussi suggests that the protagonists of Beasts lean towards fascism, but not that Crowley sympathizes with this. In fact, he [Andre-Driussi] sees the book’s ending, with the protagonists gathered and ready to act, as pessimistic.

By: Adam Stephanides

Adam Stephanides — Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:49:41 +0000

“anyone who can guess what the aristos of Gondor and horselords of Rohan live off is a better man than me.” Surely Tolkien, as a medievalist, knew what the aristocrats of Anglo-Saxon England and medieval Europe lived off of, and intended it to be the same for Middle-Earth: feudal dues, supplemented by taxes in the case of the king, and by the king’s bounty in the case of everyone else. In other words, they ultimately lived off the peasants. (Another source of income for real-life aristocrats was the spoils of war, but Tolkien’s nobles seem to have given up offensive war, iirc.)

By: Julian O'Dea

Julian O'Dea — Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:51:27 +0000

A good example, I think, of Tolkien’s weird economics is his references to “mithril”, a mined metal. Mithril seems merely to combine the qualities of titanium and platinum, but it is written about as if it were of literally fabulous value. I seem to remember that Tolkien writes that Frodo’s chain mail of mithril is worth as much as the entire value of The Shire. This makes no kind of sense that I can fathom. Julian

By: novalis

novalis — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:52:36 +0000

On the other hand, the second Sparrow book completely discarded biology in favor of creationist claptrap. I loved The Sparrow deeply (despite the not-great linguistics), but I thought that Children of God was a retreat from The Sparrow’s refusal to give easy answers to hard questions.

By: Adam Lipkin

Adam Lipkin — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:43:32 +0000

Anna, one of the interesting things about The Sparrow is that no one involved with it (publisher or author) really wanted to touch the “sci-fi” label. And Russell’s motivation—to explore the idea of a first encounter with a long-lost Indian tribe that had never had any outside contact—morphed into a sci-fi book only because the former option was unviable. Which doesn’t make it any less a good example, although it was the second book that actually performed some more advanced world-building and explored the alien society.

By: novalis

novalis — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:44:45 +0000

Jay, I think you misunderstand the topic. The question is not whether “daily rhythms of life take place”, but whether the economics of the world is considered. I’ve only read three or four books by Kay, but I didn’t notice an emphasis on economics. They seem to be much more about politics and personal relationships. On the other hand, Brust’s Teckla is all about the explotation of workers by the ruling classes. And the other books in the Taltos series that I’ve read also discuss the economics of the black market—how much it costs to get a guy killed, and why; how markets are divided horizontally by agreement; the relationship between physical force and economic control, etc.

By: Jay

Jay — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:12:39 +0000

I’m surprised none of you have mentioned Guy Gavriel Kay. He has quite conciously decided to follow in Tolkien’s footsteps and create mythic lands that stand in relation to Italy, Spain, France, etc. the way Middle Earth stands in relation to England. Tigana, for example evokes all the sense of the Borgias, Florence, the city-states, and the southern kingdom. I never thought about whether Kay was Marxist, but it seemed to me a place where crops were in the field, and food in the shops, and the daily rhythms of life took place. Unlike, say, Brust.

By: Anna

Anna — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 03:09:58 +0000

“science fiction and fantasy authors studiously avoid the ecological and biological underpinnings of the worlds they create” The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell.

By: novalis

novalis — Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:34:46 +0000

The Books of Ash (I’ve read up through most of Book 3 (of 4)) discuss the economics of war and mercenaries in the late medieval period. At one point, Ash is wounded and is unable to command her company of mercenaries. Her second in command is forced to take a contract in order to have the legal protections (and cash) that being in a contract provides. There’s also a lot of other stuff about honor, warrior codes, etc. But the different views of the characters on the intersection of economics and power provide interesting reading. The reflections on the nature of power are also fascinating. It’s worthwhile to compare Ash’s views on authority as a mercenary captain with Wolfe’s description of authority in the Dark Ages (although perhaps 1476-1477 is too late for Wolfe).

By: chicago dyke

chicago dyke — Mon, 02 Aug 2004 22:35:25 +0000

interesting discussion, although i’m not really sure why china is in the fantasy camp…but then again, i’m tired of all the usual labels and have been saying “speculative fiction” for a few years now in order to get people to read some of the better new stuff coming out. not fantasy, but super left with plenty of econ commentary: ken macleod. “the fall revolutions” should be mandatory for everyone in the US left of bob dole.

By: Henry

Henry — Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:31:58 +0000

Neel – as I said, I’ve softened my position on this considerably after a previous bout of criticisms. Point taken. I liked Metropolitan a lot ( City on Fire a little less), but didn’t spot the public choice undertones. Lest Darkness Fall is wonderful, not least for de Camp’s appreciation of the importance of double-entry book-keeping to history. Steve – The Iron Dragon’s Daughter is on my list of top twenty fantasy novels of all time for what it does with the genre. I reckon though that the economic aspects of oppression in TIDD are secondary to its main message – the oppressiveness of narrative itself – evoking all those horrible, horrible fairy tales that work out badly for the protagonist, regardless of what she (or he) does. I loved the ambiguous happy ending – happiness consists in the hundrum uncertainties of everyday life.

By: Steve

Steve — Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:49:09 +0000

Walter Jon Williams, Metropolitan and City on Fire. This is what you get if you take Mieville, swap out the Marxism with public choice, and drop the bug hunts in favor of political thriller. These are really good. Seconded; those two (particularly City on Fire) are far and away Williams' best books. And there are some wonderful bits in Michael Swanwick's The Iron Dragon's Daughter (in which, among other things, the economic rationale for changelings is demonstrated), although that may be too self-consciously revisionist a fantasy novel to really be properly in keeping with the other names being tossed about.

By: Cranky Observer

Cranky Observer — Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:43:43 +0000

Jonathan, Well, I didn’t say Herbert was right, only that he considered ecological issues ;-) Where did the air come from on Dune, anyway? Cranky