Comments on: Two men enter, one man leaves http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 04:18:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Alan K. Henderson http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38023 Alan K. Henderson Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:25:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38023 "How about the Republicans accusing Sandy Berger of attempting to politicize the declassification of national security documents? What disgusting hypocrites they all are." Excuse me? He STOLE classified documents! I have yet to see anyone prove the cardinal rule: that GOP misdeeds are ten times worse than Dem misdeeds. An anecdote here and there ain't proof. “How about the Republicans accusing Sandy Berger of attempting to politicize the declassification of national security documents? What disgusting hypocrites they all are.” Excuse me? He STOLE classified documents! I have yet to see anyone prove the cardinal rule: that GOP misdeeds are ten times worse than Dem misdeeds. An anecdote here and there ain’t proof.

]]> By: bob mcmanus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38022 bob mcmanus Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:39:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38022 "But I think the last few posts make my point about demonization not being confined to Republican tactics quite well." Yeah, well, if y'all wanna get back on topic or something... I don't have a syndicated radio show or book contract, and neither does Cynthia McKinney. If public and paid vitriol is any indicator of private and hidden vitriol, Republicans win hands-down. “But I think the last few posts make my point about demonization not being confined to Republican tactics quite well.” Yeah, well, if y’all wanna get back on topic or something… I don’t have a syndicated radio show or book contract, and neither does Cynthia McKinney. If public and paid vitriol is any indicator of private and hidden vitriol, Republicans win hands-down.

]]> By: robbo http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38021 robbo Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:03:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38021 Hey Seb, way to avoid my questions. I never said that Bush knew exactly what the threat was, or what the possible costs could be in American lives. I only suggested that he might have been willing to accept some sort of limited attack on America in exchange for a nice, juicy enemy upon which to focus American ire. Do you think that no leader has ever thought this way, or only that Bush is so virtuous that he wouldn't/couldn't? I believe that almost everyone was floored when the attackers managed to take down both WTC towers, and I don't suggest that Bush would have knowingly allowed that particular attack to happen knowing what the outcome would be. But I can easily imagine him receiving terrorism warnings, imagining something far less destructive, and thinking, "Bring it on, Osama/Saddam/whomever, and we'll see who's left standing in 2008." Why is this so difficult for you to imagine? Hey Seb, way to avoid my questions. I never said that Bush knew exactly what the threat was, or what the possible costs could be in American lives. I only suggested that he might have been willing to accept some sort of limited attack on America in exchange for a nice, juicy enemy upon which to focus American ire. Do you think that no leader has ever thought this way, or only that Bush is so virtuous that he wouldn’t/couldn’t? I believe that almost everyone was floored when the attackers managed to take down both WTC towers, and I don’t suggest that Bush would have knowingly allowed that particular attack to happen knowing what the outcome would be. But I can easily imagine him receiving terrorism warnings, imagining something far less destructive, and thinking, “Bring it on, Osama/Saddam/whomever, and we’ll see who’s left standing in 2008.” Why is this so difficult for you to imagine?

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38020 Sebastian Holsclaw Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:34:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38020 Arghhhhh, my denial has nothing to do with the level of detail. I mentioned the 40,000+ intended victims because it is one of the specifics that we are talking about. I think that talking about it as mere "heinous level of cynicism and miscalculation" is what lets some people get away with being foolishly outrageous. But I think the last few posts make my point about demonization not being confined to Republican tactics quite well. Arghhhhh, my denial has nothing to do with the level of detail. I mentioned the 40,000+ intended victims because it is one of the specifics that we are talking about. I think that talking about it as mere “heinous level of cynicism and miscalculation” is what lets some people get away with being foolishly outrageous. But I think the last few posts make my point about demonization not being confined to Republican tactics quite well.

]]> By: bob mcmanus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38019 bob mcmanus Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:22:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38019 I apologize, that was silly, and I don't believe it. I do not believe they intentionally allowed 9/11. What I believe is that there was an incompetence in threat assessment and foreign policy priorities at the very highest level. Bush, Cheney, Rice were too focused on China and NK to notice al Qaeda. I apologize, that was silly, and I don’t believe it. I do not believe they intentionally allowed 9/11. What I believe is that there was an incompetence in threat assessment and foreign policy priorities at the very highest level. Bush, Cheney, Rice were too focused on China and NK to notice al Qaeda.

]]> By: bob mcmanus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38018 bob mcmanus Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:17:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38018 "kill everyone in the Twin Towers (40,000+ people)" The level of detail in the denial reminds me of Condi Rice's "Nobody could have imagined 8 hijackers taking two aiplanes from Boston....etc?" Sebastian, is it impossible to imagine Bushco would allow a terrorist hijacking that they assumed would cause few or no casualties, if they believed it would facilitate the greater purpose of preventing rogue regimes from getting WMD's? “kill everyone in the Twin Towers (40,000+ people)” The level of detail in the denial reminds me of Condi Rice’s “Nobody could have imagined 8 hijackers taking two aiplanes from Boston….etc?” Sebastian, is it impossible to imagine Bushco would allow a terrorist hijacking that they assumed would cause few or no casualties, if they believed it would facilitate the greater purpose of preventing rogue regimes from getting WMD’s?

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38017 Sebastian Holsclaw Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:58:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38017 "Does nothing in the current or historical record suggest to you that Bush and his people were/are capable of this heinous level of cynicism and miscalculation?" Let us not obfuscate. No. Nothing in the current historical record suggests to me that Bush and his people would find out about a massive terrorist plot to kill everyone in the Twin Towers (40,000+ people) and then let it happen for political gain. If you believe that happened please state so clearly. “Does nothing in the current or historical record suggest to you that Bush and his people were/are capable of this heinous level of cynicism and miscalculation?” Let us not obfuscate. No. Nothing in the current historical record suggests to me that Bush and his people would find out about a massive terrorist plot to kill everyone in the Twin Towers (40,000+ people) and then let it happen for political gain. If you believe that happened please state so clearly.

]]> By: bob mcmanus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38016 bob mcmanus Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:24:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38016 A) A spike in oil prices was predictable 5-10 years ago. The spike has little to do with the war or terrorism, and is caused by increased demand from China etc, but it was predictable. Whoever has control of oil right now is making huge bucks. Insane bucks. B) I don't know what to do about the "revolving door" or the connections of people of high achievement with high margin big corporations. I don't know if anything should be done. What kind of job should a Rumsfeld or Albright or Rice do when they leave gov't? Flip burgers? But there will always be some conflict of interest. C) If I told a Greek or Roman that you should not profit off a war they would think me mad. Leaders took their nations to war for personal and social financial gain. Hell, I think even the grunts are getting some nice checks. That we find this horrifying might mean there is something wrong with us. (This will get the CT gang mad at me.) A) A spike in oil prices was predictable 5-10 years ago. The spike has little to do with the war or terrorism, and is caused by increased demand from China etc, but it was predictable. Whoever has control of oil right now is making huge bucks. Insane bucks. B) I don’t know what to do about the “revolving door” or the connections of people of high achievement with high margin big corporations. I don’t know if anything should be done. What kind of job should a Rumsfeld or Albright or Rice do when they leave gov’t? Flip burgers? But there will always be some conflict of interest. C) If I told a Greek or Roman that you should not profit off a war they would think me mad. Leaders took their nations to war for personal and social financial gain. Hell, I think even the grunts are getting some nice checks. That we find this horrifying might mean there is something wrong with us. (This will get the CT gang mad at me.)

]]> By: robbo http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38015 robbo Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:06:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38015 Sebastian, there's much I don't understand about you, but do you still grant Bush and his people credit for having done their utmost to stop 9/11? If so, tell me what exactly they did to stop it. For example, they had ample reason to prioritize anti-terrorism actions above the neocons' then-obsession with a missile defense shield. Or above Ashcroft's crackdown on head shops. What do you make of Richard Clarkes charges that they were insufficiently concerned about the many serious threat warnings? If you don't think they did their utmost to stop 9/11, where does that slippery slope lead? Where does "not going all out to stop" a predicted event merge into "calculating whether our side might stand to gain" from that predicted event? Such questions, which I would have thought ridiculous before the Bush II era, now seem quite reasonable to me. Do they still seem unreasonable to you? Does nothing in the current or historical record suggest to you that Bush and his people were/are capable of this heinous level of cynicism and miscalculation? Sebastian, there’s much I don’t understand about you, but do you still grant Bush and his people credit for having done their utmost to stop 9/11? If so, tell me what exactly they did to stop it. For example, they had ample reason to prioritize anti-terrorism actions above the neocons’ then-obsession with a missile defense shield. Or above Ashcroft’s crackdown on head shops. What do you make of Richard Clarkes charges that they were insufficiently concerned about the many serious threat warnings? If you don’t think they did their utmost to stop 9/11, where does that slippery slope lead? Where does “not going all out to stop” a predicted event merge into “calculating whether our side might stand to gain” from that predicted event? Such questions, which I would have thought ridiculous before the Bush II era, now seem quite reasonable to me. Do they still seem unreasonable to you? Does nothing in the current or historical record suggest to you that Bush and his people were/are capable of this heinous level of cynicism and miscalculation?

]]> By: bob mcmanus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38014 bob mcmanus Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:55:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38014 I am no fan of McKinney's. But I doubt she meant that Bush administration officials planned 9/11 in order to make a few bucks off dust masks. Are you willing to say for certain that Bushco (and you now how this works, for both parties, the rewards come later) have not or will not financially profit from 9/11? Especially if you conflate 9/11 with Afghanistan/Iraq, as they would have us do? And although it was not their primary motive, I am willing to guess that potential profits from the Iraq invasion were not utterly absent from Bushco's minds. And Iraq was on their minds on Sept 11. I wish it were otherwise. I am no fan of McKinney’s. But I doubt she meant that Bush administration officials planned 9/11 in order to make a few bucks off dust masks. Are you willing to say for certain that Bushco (and you now how this works, for both parties, the rewards come later) have not or will not financially profit from 9/11? Especially if you conflate 9/11 with Afghanistan/Iraq, as they would have us do? And although it was not their primary motive, I am willing to guess that potential profits from the Iraq invasion were not utterly absent from Bushco’s minds. And Iraq was on their minds on Sept 11. I wish it were otherwise.

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38013 Sebastian Holsclaw Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:05:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38013 You think Mckinney's quote means politically profited? You think Mckinney’s quote means politically profited?

]]> By: bob mcmanus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38012 bob mcmanus Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:24:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38012 "And I won’t ask you to defend Cynthia McKinney’s theory that Bush and the Jews planned (or allowed depending on which day you ask her) 9-11. " Sebastian's first statement....note the words "planned" or "allowed" "I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. A complete investigation might reveal that to be the case." ...McKinney's second paragraph. Is anyone willing to make the case that the Bush administration has not politically profited from 9/11? Is it not beyond doubt that so many friends of Bush have profited from 9/11 as an excuse for the rape of Iraq (and American taxpayers), that, in the usual manner, the Feiths and Libbys will not be rewarded by the Halliburtons upon leaving Government service? As far as MacKinney's first paragraph, perhaps ill-phrased, but it will be considered prescient in light of Chapter 8 of the 9/11 commission. What did they know? Enough to stop it. When did they know? Early enough to stop it with a bare minimum of effort. Why did they not warn? Heck, Bush needs his vacation time. What do they have to hide? Well, considering how hard they fought the commission....well, heck, we all have a pretty good idea of how much there is to hide. There is enough to hide that there is no way Kerry will become President. Not enough pardons in the world. “And I won’t ask you to defend Cynthia McKinney’s theory that Bush and the Jews planned (or allowed depending on which day you ask her) 9-11. ” Sebastian’s first statement….note the words “planned” or “allowed” “I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. A complete investigation might reveal that to be the case.” …McKinney’s second paragraph. Is anyone willing to make the case that the Bush administration has not politically profited from 9/11? Is it not beyond doubt that so many friends of Bush have profited from 9/11 as an excuse for the rape of Iraq (and American taxpayers), that, in the usual manner, the Feiths and Libbys will not be rewarded by the Halliburtons upon leaving Government service? As far as MacKinney’s first paragraph, perhaps ill-phrased, but it will be considered prescient in light of Chapter 8 of the 9/11 commission. What did they know? Enough to stop it. When did they know? Early enough to stop it with a bare minimum of effort. Why did they not warn? Heck, Bush needs his vacation time. What do they have to hide? Well, considering how hard they fought the commission….well, heck, we all have a pretty good idea of how much there is to hide. There is enough to hide that there is no way Kerry will become President. Not enough pardons in the world.

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38011 Sebastian Holsclaw Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:02:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38011 Hmm, <a>Washington Post</a> good enough for you? The only reason I can't give you New York Times is link-rot. <blockquote> What did this administration know and when did it know it, about the events of September 11th? Who else knew, and why did they not warn the innocent people of New York who were needlessly murdered? . . . What do they have to hide? (but after being challenged on this she pretends to retreat) I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. A complete investigation <b>might reveal that to be the case</b>. </blockquote> And if you think that last sentence is any better than "I am not aware of any concrete evidence that Cynthia Mckinney allows her mechanic to molestt her daughters and their friends, but a complete investigation might reveal that to be the case, you are the one who can't be taken seriously. As for blaming the Jews for 9-11, I must apologize, her father <a href="http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.08.30/news3.html"> blames </a> the J-E-W-S for her political troubles. Her defeat also caused an interesting reaction in the progressive community--enough so that Stephen Zunes thought it necessary to write <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0825-01.htm">an article</a> about not blaming the Jews, but the debate raged as it became clear that some people really did want to make it all about <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0827-08.htm"> the Jews</a>. So I'll apologize for combining two sets of odious McKinney related topics in my mind, but I won't apologize for failing to keep track of all the nuances among utter craziness. Hmm, Washington Post good enough for you? The only reason I can’t give you New York Times is link-rot.
What did this administration know and when did it know it, about the events of September 11th? Who else knew, and why did they not warn the innocent people of New York who were needlessly murdered? . . . What do they have to hide? (but after being challenged on this she pretends to retreat) I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. A complete investigation might reveal that to be the case.
And if you think that last sentence is any better than “I am not aware of any concrete evidence that Cynthia Mckinney allows her mechanic to molestt her daughters and their friends, but a complete investigation might reveal that to be the case, you are the one who can’t be taken seriously. As for blaming the Jews for 9-11, I must apologize, her father blames the J-E-W-S for her political troubles. Her defeat also caused an interesting reaction in the progressive community—enough so that Stephen Zunes thought it necessary to write an article about not blaming the Jews, but the debate raged as it became clear that some people really did want to make it all about the Jews. So I’ll apologize for combining two sets of odious McKinney related topics in my mind, but I won’t apologize for failing to keep track of all the nuances among utter craziness.

]]> By: W. Kiernan http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38010 W. Kiernan Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:14:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38010 holsclaw sez: <i>And I won’t ask you to defend Cynthia McKinney’s theory that Bush and the Jews planned (or allowed depending on which day you ask her) 9-11.</i> Well, that's the last time I take anything <i>you</i> have to say seriously. Show me where Cynthia McKinney ever said anything like that. Links to Free Republic don't count. holsclaw sez: And I won’t ask you to defend Cynthia McKinney’s theory that Bush and the Jews planned (or allowed depending on which day you ask her) 9-11. Well, that’s the last time I take anything you have to say seriously. Show me where Cynthia McKinney ever said anything like that. Links to Free Republic don’t count.

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/09/two-men-enter-one-man-leaves/comment-page-1/#comment-38009 Sebastian Holsclaw Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:30:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=1995#comment-38009 That's Bush's <b>most excellent</b> Iraq adventure. :) That’s Bush’s most excellent Iraq adventure. :)

]]>