Comments on: Good Stuff from the Decembrist http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:33:20 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38280 Barry Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:36:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38280 That also assumes that opporunity is actually being maximized. As opposed to increased risk and inequality being explained away by alleging increased opportunity. That also assumes that opporunity is actually being maximized. As opposed to increased risk and inequality being explained away by alleging increased opportunity.

]]> By: Doug Turnbull http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38279 Doug Turnbull Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:06:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38279 This seems to tie into one of the more perceptive analyses I've read of the current (and past) transformations of the state. It's in a fairly long tome called _The Shield fo Achilles_ by Phillip Bobbitt. It looks at the past 500 years of history, first going over the interplay between changes in military strategy and changes in internal politics. And second looking at the evolution of the international community. Anyway, the authot identifies 4 or 5 major transformations in the nature of the state, from Princely States to Kingly State to State Nations to Nation States and now, currently, towards market states. He sees exactly that trend--that the state is geting out of trying to maximize the well-being of all its members and moving towards a mode of trying to maximize opportunity. Which comes at the cost of increased risks and inequality. It's an interesting analysis, although he takes the coming market state as a fait accompli rather than looking at ways to avoid it or ameliorate its consequences. This seems to tie into one of the more perceptive analyses I’ve read of the current (and past) transformations of the state. It’s in a fairly long tome called The Shield fo Achilles by Phillip Bobbitt. It looks at the past 500 years of history, first going over the interplay between changes in military strategy and changes in internal politics. And second looking at the evolution of the international community. Anyway, the authot identifies 4 or 5 major transformations in the nature of the state, from Princely States to Kingly State to State Nations to Nation States and now, currently, towards market states. He sees exactly that trend—that the state is geting out of trying to maximize the well-being of all its members and moving towards a mode of trying to maximize opportunity. Which comes at the cost of increased risks and inequality. It’s an interesting analysis, although he takes the coming market state as a fait accompli rather than looking at ways to avoid it or ameliorate its consequences.

]]> By: Xavier http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38278 Xavier Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:35:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38278 I blame the minimum wage. Benefits first became a major part of labor compensation during WWII when there was a ceiling on wage increases. There was no other way to increase compensation and attract employees. It stands to reason that a wage floor would cause employers to eliminate benefits because it's the only way employers can reduce compensation. I don't really see the problem with not offering sick days. Some employers may see sick days as a way to prevent employees from coming in sick and infecting others, and some may see sick days as a tool for lazy employees to skip out on work. Either is reasonable. We should allow employers and employees to work that out for themselves. I blame the minimum wage. Benefits first became a major part of labor compensation during WWII when there was a ceiling on wage increases. There was no other way to increase compensation and attract employees. It stands to reason that a wage floor would cause employers to eliminate benefits because it’s the only way employers can reduce compensation. I don’t really see the problem with not offering sick days. Some employers may see sick days as a way to prevent employees from coming in sick and infecting others, and some may see sick days as a tool for lazy employees to skip out on work. Either is reasonable. We should allow employers and employees to work that out for themselves.

]]> By: Richard Bellamy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38277 Richard Bellamy Thu, 12 Aug 2004 01:21:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38277 <i>McDonalds should offshore its employees ASAP. That’s a winning strategy.</i> You scoff. Ha ha. You can't outsource McDonald's workers, you idiot! And yet. . . a Missouri McDonalds just <a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/529970.html">outsourced its drive-through window</a> to Colorado. Why not India? Scary, no? Yes, sick pay is surely not feasible through a centralized bureuacracy, just as no one would even consider <a href="http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=139&subid=277&contentid=251930">paying Family Medical Leave</a> from state resources. Ridiculous. DOA. Nothing to seriously contemplate here. Move along. McDonalds should offshore its employees ASAP. That’s a winning strategy. You scoff. Ha ha. You can’t outsource McDonald’s workers, you idiot! And yet. . . a Missouri McDonalds just outsourced its drive-through window to Colorado. Why not India? Scary, no? Yes, sick pay is surely not feasible through a centralized bureuacracy, just as no one would even consider paying Family Medical Leave from state resources. Ridiculous. DOA. Nothing to seriously contemplate here. Move along.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38276 abb1 Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:36:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38276 The choice is simple, Richard: either you are, as a master of your own destiny, defending your own interests one way or another, getting good wages, good benefits, good working conditions, good pension plan, good education and good medical care. Or you are a poor sap worrying about well-being of a small class of rich people (of which you are not a member), who are using your body pretty much like a rented car, saving a few bucks on oil change, because - who cares? when this one bites the dust they'll rent another one. All there is to it. The choice is simple, Richard: either you are, as a master of your own destiny, defending your own interests one way or another, getting good wages, good benefits, good working conditions, good pension plan, good education and good medical care. Or you are a poor sap worrying about well-being of a small class of rich people (of which you are not a member), who are using your body pretty much like a rented car, saving a few bucks on oil change, because – who cares? when this one bites the dust they’ll rent another one. All there is to it.

]]> By: Da Thug http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38275 Da Thug Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:07:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38275 <i>Or, an incentive to move the job off-shore, where wage/benefit costs are lower. </i> McDonalds should offshore its employees ASAP. That's a winning strategy. <i>But more simply, if the cost is really passed on to the consumer, so we are all paying for it indirectly, why the objection to us all paying for it directly?</i> Well said, dude. The chances are negligible of government handouts being misused by companies who report employees as being sick when in fact they are not, merely in order to lower operating costs. Paying sick leave via a centralized bureacracy also ensures that individual companies will implement policies to maximize employee health and welfare, something that is unlikely to be realized if employers had to pay for such things out of their own pockets - and certainly not as efficiently. Or, an incentive to move the job off-shore, where wage/benefit costs are lower. McDonalds should offshore its employees ASAP. That’s a winning strategy. But more simply, if the cost is really passed on to the consumer, so we are all paying for it indirectly, why the objection to us all paying for it directly? Well said, dude. The chances are negligible of government handouts being misused by companies who report employees as being sick when in fact they are not, merely in order to lower operating costs. Paying sick leave via a centralized bureacracy also ensures that individual companies will implement policies to maximize employee health and welfare, something that is unlikely to be realized if employers had to pay for such things out of their own pockets – and certainly not as efficiently.

]]> By: Richard Bellamy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38274 Richard Bellamy Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:44:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38274 <i>Rising wages/benefits would represent an increase in the cost of doing business, which, for the most part, would be passed onto consumers of whom you are a member (most likely).</i> Or, an incentive to move the job off-shore, where wage/benefit costs are lower. The choices appear to be (1) tell employers do pay more if they want to hire Americans, and then whine when they choose to not hire Americans; or (2) pay the employees more ourselves (through, for example, the Earned Income Tax Credit) and keep the jobs here. I know the "small business owner" is usually used as a frontman to get goodies for big business owners, but the fact is that lots and lots of employers only employ a small number of people. Why should a guy with two employees who give each other the flu have to pay for four employees for the week that they are out? I am not saying that the employees shouldn't get sick pay, but why the desire to make the employer pay for it? But more simply, if the cost is really passed on to the consumer, so we are all paying for it indirectly, why the objection to us all paying for it directly? Rising wages/benefits would represent an increase in the cost of doing business, which, for the most part, would be passed onto consumers of whom you are a member (most likely). Or, an incentive to move the job off-shore, where wage/benefit costs are lower. The choices appear to be (1) tell employers do pay more if they want to hire Americans, and then whine when they choose to not hire Americans; or (2) pay the employees more ourselves (through, for example, the Earned Income Tax Credit) and keep the jobs here. I know the “small business owner” is usually used as a frontman to get goodies for big business owners, but the fact is that lots and lots of employers only employ a small number of people. Why should a guy with two employees who give each other the flu have to pay for four employees for the week that they are out? I am not saying that the employees shouldn’t get sick pay, but why the desire to make the employer pay for it? But more simply, if the cost is really passed on to the consumer, so we are all paying for it indirectly, why the objection to us all paying for it directly?

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38273 Sebastian Holsclaw Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:15:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38273 "I would speculate that of the 54% of the U.S. workforce who do not get paid sick leave, a huge majority also do not get paid personal days." Maybe so, but why in the world wouldn't a report on sick leave cover the issue? I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm griping about poor statistics-gathering. “I would speculate that of the 54% of the U.S. workforce who do not get paid sick leave, a huge majority also do not get paid personal days.” Maybe so, but why in the world wouldn’t a report on sick leave cover the issue? I’m not saying that you are wrong, I’m griping about poor statistics-gathering.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38272 Henry Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:08:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38272 My employer (about 1200 people worldwide) eliminated accrued sick leave a decade ago. We still get paid when we take a sick day, they're just not on the books so they're not a liability. A doctor's note is required for more than 5 consecutive ones because short term disability insurance kicks in at that point. This policy is valid for the few hourly employees as well. So does my employer count as having no paid sick leave? This policy is certainly fair to the employees. My employer (about 1200 people worldwide) eliminated accrued sick leave a decade ago. We still get paid when we take a sick day, they’re just not on the books so they’re not a liability. A doctor’s note is required for more than 5 consecutive ones because short term disability insurance kicks in at that point. This policy is valid for the few hourly employees as well. So does my employer count as having no paid sick leave? This policy is certainly fair to the employees.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38271 abb1 Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:58:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38271 <blockquote> <i>My problem is in imposing the burden of making them better off on a class of people of which I am not a member.</i> </blockquote> Rising wages/benefits would represent an increase in the cost of doing business, which, for the most part, would be passed onto consumers of whom you <i>are</i> a member (most likely). So, your compassion for greedy fat cats seems to be somewhat misplaced. Cheer up Richard, man, this won't reduce quality of their trophy wives or length of their yachts.
My problem is in imposing the burden of making them better off on a class of people of which I am not a member.
Rising wages/benefits would represent an increase in the cost of doing business, which, for the most part, would be passed onto consumers of whom you are a member (most likely). So, your compassion for greedy fat cats seems to be somewhat misplaced. Cheer up Richard, man, this won’t reduce quality of their trophy wives or length of their yachts.

]]> By: Richard Bellamy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38270 Richard Bellamy Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:12:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38270 Like I said, I have no problem recognizing that the working fellow is getting worse off -- depending on how narrowly we're defining "working fellow." There are certainly a fair number of working fellows in India and China who are much better off. They should count for something to. But I have no problem saying that American working fellows are worse off. I have no problem saying that American working fellows should be made better off. My problem is in imposing the burden of making them better off on a class of people of which I am not a member. Like I said, I have no problem recognizing that the working fellow is getting worse off—depending on how narrowly we’re defining “working fellow.” There are certainly a fair number of working fellows in India and China who are much better off. They should count for something to. But I have no problem saying that American working fellows are worse off. I have no problem saying that American working fellows should be made better off. My problem is in imposing the burden of making them better off on a class of people of which I am not a member.

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38269 dsquared Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:21:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38269 Well thank you for that view, Richard. Now would you perhaps agree that this trend has been pretty bad for the working fellow in real life? Well thank you for that view, Richard. Now would you perhaps agree that this trend has been pretty bad for the working fellow in real life?

]]> By: Richard Bellamy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38268 Richard Bellamy Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:15:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38268 I'm all for security and paid sick leave. I'm just not sure why the employer should have to pay it. If I own a McDonald's that has 4 people working a shift, and one person gets sick, I have to pay someone else. Why should I pay for 5 workers when I'm only using four? I feel like too often people jump from "This is a good thing" to "Therefore Person X should do it." Employers can determine on their own whether it's in their own interest to give sick days. They don't need me to say, "Do it. It's in your own interest." Best to make sick pay for the rest a government program, rather than a burden solely on employers. I’m all for security and paid sick leave. I’m just not sure why the employer should have to pay it. If I own a McDonald’s that has 4 people working a shift, and one person gets sick, I have to pay someone else. Why should I pay for 5 workers when I’m only using four? I feel like too often people jump from “This is a good thing” to “Therefore Person X should do it.” Employers can determine on their own whether it’s in their own interest to give sick days. They don’t need me to say, “Do it. It’s in your own interest.” Best to make sick pay for the rest a government program, rather than a burden solely on employers.

]]> By: Jeremy Osner http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38267 Jeremy Osner Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:48:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38267 Hmm... I would speculate that of the 54% of the U.S. workforce who do not get paid sick leave, a huge majority also do not get paid personal days. Hmm… I would speculate that of the 54% of the U.S. workforce who do not get paid sick leave, a huge majority also do not get paid personal days.

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/11/good-stuff-from-the-decembrist/comment-page-1/#comment-38266 Sebastian Holsclaw Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:27:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2008#comment-38266 Well, yes I had more vacation days. Well, yes I had more vacation days.

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