Comments on: Love is a Battlefield Spanning-Tree Network with no 4-Cycles http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:43:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Anonymous Coward http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38684 Anonymous Coward Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:20:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38684 This is so fucking cool. This is so fucking cool.

]]> By: Alan Bostick http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38683 Alan Bostick Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:21:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38683 If a social force acts against four-cycles, it's not a very strong force. In my own (het male) adult life I can pick out many four-cycles of which I am a member, and at least one three-cycle. If a social force acts against four-cycles, it’s not a very strong force. In my own (het male) adult life I can pick out many four-cycles of which I am a member, and at least one three-cycle.

]]> By: SHock http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38682 SHock Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:28:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38682 Does the analysis include faculty? Does the analysis include faculty?

]]> By: Peter Bearman http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38681 Peter Bearman Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:08:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38681 Some comments on the discussion to this point -- which has been extremely interesting and generally at higher level than at talks, etc. The scope conditions for the structural findings are pretty strong. That is, one would not expect such structures in adult populations where individuals have the capacity to segregate domains. For an unstated negative prohibition to obtain, people have to have the capacity to watch and enforce violations. Nor will it obtain in heterodox and isolated small groups. The generally accepted 10% homosexual preference number is probably without too much empirical foundation – certainly not for this age population, where it is close to 2%. That said, the model here is a model for heterosexual relationships, since a cycle of length 4 makes sense only in that context. There are some homosexual relationships in the school, more than the single one identified so far. For Add Health as a whole, 2% rather than 10% is what is observed. It is interesting that girls are as likely to be predators as boys, in the sense that if girls are going to have a lot of partners, their partners will tend to be less experienced. This is the same for boys. In adults, there tends to be homophily on number of partners beyond just one or two. This is not true for adolescents. It is true that there are cycles and that spanning trees have no cycles, but the proportion of cycles is far less than one would expect by chance. The pedant is therefore right, but substantively wrong. The implications of the paper are that most of the received models for estimating STD risk are wrong because they have the wrong underlying network structure in mind – at least for adolescents. This may strike some as important. For me, the most interesting thing is the fact that people follow normative rules that they cannot and do not articulate; this is not simply a modern phenomenon; similar dynamics can be seen in many other contexts – for example, Australian classificatory kinship systems. This suggests that those of us interested in understanding social behavior have to focus on the ways in which structure reveals grammars for action that are cognitively inaccessible to actors. Hope I did not violate some unstated norm by posting to this discussion, my first such post – ever. Peter Bearman Some comments on the discussion to this point—which has been extremely interesting and generally at higher level than at talks, etc. The scope conditions for the structural findings are pretty strong. That is, one would not expect such structures in adult populations where individuals have the capacity to segregate domains. For an unstated negative prohibition to obtain, people have to have the capacity to watch and enforce violations. Nor will it obtain in heterodox and isolated small groups. The generally accepted 10% homosexual preference number is probably without too much empirical foundation – certainly not for this age population, where it is close to 2%. That said, the model here is a model for heterosexual relationships, since a cycle of length 4 makes sense only in that context. There are some homosexual relationships in the school, more than the single one identified so far. For Add Health as a whole, 2% rather than 10% is what is observed. It is interesting that girls are as likely to be predators as boys, in the sense that if girls are going to have a lot of partners, their partners will tend to be less experienced. This is the same for boys. In adults, there tends to be homophily on number of partners beyond just one or two. This is not true for adolescents. It is true that there are cycles and that spanning trees have no cycles, but the proportion of cycles is far less than one would expect by chance. The pedant is therefore right, but substantively wrong. The implications of the paper are that most of the received models for estimating STD risk are wrong because they have the wrong underlying network structure in mind – at least for adolescents. This may strike some as important. For me, the most interesting thing is the fact that people follow normative rules that they cannot and do not articulate; this is not simply a modern phenomenon; similar dynamics can be seen in many other contexts – for example, Australian classificatory kinship systems. This suggests that those of us interested in understanding social behavior have to focus on the ways in which structure reveals grammars for action that are cognitively inaccessible to actors. Hope I did not violate some unstated norm by posting to this discussion, my first such post – ever. Peter Bearman

]]> By: nobody http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38680 nobody Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:53:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38680 novalis -- I'm on that chart. I know of at least one person with a parser for it, though I don't know if it's 100%. If not, it's pretty close. novalis— I’m on that chart. I know of at least one person with a parser for it, though I don’t know if it’s 100%. If not, it’s pretty close.

]]> By: cbl http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38679 cbl Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:41:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38679 dsquared, It seems like there is one homosexual relationship, located on the periphery of the upper-left quadrant of the graph. (Un)-luckily, his partner was bisexual, linking him to the rest of the dating scene. dsquared, It seems like there is one homosexual relationship, located on the periphery of the upper-left quadrant of the graph. (Un)-luckily, his partner was bisexual, linking him to the rest of the dating scene.

]]> By: Zizka http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38678 Zizka Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:05:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38678 I think that the sex-neutral language creates a blindspot too. It's still more permissible for boys to be promiscuous than girls even on the West Coast. (Actually, in 1991 it still was -- even my son is old now. However, I suspect that in the Midwest it still is). And boys are more into the conquest thing. A dumped girl won't be a conquest any more, and will also in most cases be warier unless she wants to go all the way into being a doormat or slut. And even if she chooses that path, she will be very likely to go outside the gossipy, vicious HS environment. I think that the rule can be stated idiomatically with overlapping principles of not wanting to get into a double-reject relationship (C and D getting together after having been rejected respectively by A and B, the new couple) with some attention to the fact that girls are supposed to be less available and less aggressive. I think that a similiar study of a bar scene would come up with different results. I think that the sex-neutral language creates a blindspot too. It’s still more permissible for boys to be promiscuous than girls even on the West Coast. (Actually, in 1991 it still was—even my son is old now. However, I suspect that in the Midwest it still is). And boys are more into the conquest thing. A dumped girl won’t be a conquest any more, and will also in most cases be warier unless she wants to go all the way into being a doormat or slut. And even if she chooses that path, she will be very likely to go outside the gossipy, vicious HS environment. I think that the rule can be stated idiomatically with overlapping principles of not wanting to get into a double-reject relationship (C and D getting together after having been rejected respectively by A and B, the new couple) with some attention to the fact that girls are supposed to be less available and less aggressive. I think that a similiar study of a bar scene would come up with different results.

]]> By: Jason Kuznicki http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38677 Jason Kuznicki Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:11:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38677 I wouldn't be surprised to find high schoolers concealing gay relationships from researchers, for fear of being discovered by their parents or peers. It's likely to be a flaw of any study. I wouldn’t be surprised to find high schoolers concealing gay relationships from researchers, for fear of being discovered by their parents or peers. It’s likely to be a flaw of any study.

]]> By: Keith M Ellis http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38676 Keith M Ellis Sun, 15 Aug 2004 06:27:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38676 <blockquote>Just out of interest, were there really absolutely no homosexual relationships at that school?—D²</blockquote> Yeah, that seems to me to be a big flaw in this study. (Not that I read the linked page.) Someone do the math: if you assume that 10% of the population is gay, then the 4-cycle rule won't apply (as well as many other things). How would that change the structure? Wouldn't it? Perhaps dramatically, given how these results demonstrate how sensitive such things are to small changes?
Just out of interest, were there really absolutely no homosexual relationships at that school?—D²
Yeah, that seems to me to be a big flaw in this study. (Not that I read the linked page.) Someone do the math: if you assume that 10% of the population is gay, then the 4-cycle rule won’t apply (as well as many other things). How would that change the structure? Wouldn’t it? Perhaps dramatically, given how these results demonstrate how sensitive such things are to small changes?

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38675 dsquared Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:58:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38675 Just out of interest, were there really absolutely no homosexual relationships at that school? Just out of interest, were there really absolutely no homosexual relationships at that school?

]]> By: James http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38674 James Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:47:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38674 <a href="http://www.soc.washington.edu/users/stovel/Chains.pdf">The paper is freely available online</a>, linked from the <a href="http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/networks/">Gallery of Network Graphs</a> (which I originally saw on <a href="http://dev.upian.com/hotlinks/">Hot Links</a> about 6 months ago.) It contains details on the methodology - there were 800 students at the school, in a fairly isolated town (although it does account for relationships where one partner was not at school,) over a period of 18 months. And no, the network isn't a spanning tree, just "has the appearance of a spanning tree. ... [G]lobal structure is defined by a graph with few cycles, low redundancy, and consequently very sparse overall density." The actual <a href="http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/networks/addhealth.gif">graph of the dating network</a> (from the gallery above, the paper I linked to is missing all the figures) shows two 4-cycles (with 3 common nodes between them), one 6-cycle, one large cycle of 38, and 283 nodes. The paper is freely available online, linked from the Gallery of Network Graphs (which I originally saw on Hot Links about 6 months ago.) It contains details on the methodology – there were 800 students at the school, in a fairly isolated town (although it does account for relationships where one partner was not at school,) over a period of 18 months. And no, the network isn’t a spanning tree, just “has the appearance of a spanning tree. … [G]lobal structure is defined by a graph with few cycles, low redundancy, and consequently very sparse overall density.” The actual graph of the dating network (from the gallery above, the paper I linked to is missing all the figures) shows two 4-cycles (with 3 common nodes between them), one 6-cycle, one large cycle of 38, and 283 nodes.

]]> By: Matt Weiner http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38673 Matt Weiner Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:43:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38673 Porridge brothers, eh? A fellow-philosopher recently introduced me to the term "stomach buddy," which I was told was an Icelandic term; I can't remember whether it referred to people who were linked by two degrees or by three. The claim was that Iceland is so small that it becomes important to have terms for these relationships. I can't find either porridge brother or stomach buddy by Google, although I suppose I will be able to soon. So I guess the norm could be something like "Don't date your stomach buddy" or "Don't be stomach buddies with someone two ways," depending on which definition is right. <br />[Disclosure: The person who introduced me to this term was not Icelandic, or my stomach buddy, or my porridge brother. In fact I am a disembodied AI program and have no sort of personal life that would be of interest to anyone, so don't ask.] Porridge brothers, eh? A fellow-philosopher recently introduced me to the term “stomach buddy,” which I was told was an Icelandic term; I can’t remember whether it referred to people who were linked by two degrees or by three. The claim was that Iceland is so small that it becomes important to have terms for these relationships. I can’t find either porridge brother or stomach buddy by Google, although I suppose I will be able to soon. So I guess the norm could be something like “Don’t date your stomach buddy” or “Don’t be stomach buddies with someone two ways,” depending on which definition is right.
[Disclosure: The person who introduced me to this term was not Icelandic, or my stomach buddy, or my porridge brother. In fact I am a disembodied AI program and have no sort of personal life that would be of interest to anyone, so don’t ask.]

]]> By: Pedant http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38672 Pedant Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:24:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38672 Not to be pedantic, but I did a double take when I read the title, <i>Spanning-Tree Network with No 4-Cycles</i>. I mean, <b>by definition</b>, a "tree" doesn't have <b>any</b> cycles. A spanning-tree is a tree which touches all nodes in the network. So it's... redundant to say "a tree with no cycles." And if there are any cycles, it's not a tree. And it doesn't seem like the "spanning" concept is doing much work for you here, either. It seems like a better description of these networks would be <i>Sparse, connected graphs that (locally) look like trees</i>. Or maybe something that gets at the difference in connectivity-distributions between these observed networks, and the (posited) "core" networks. (That is, on the small scale, you don't see any "small" cycles). Not to be pedantic, but I did a double take when I read the title, Spanning-Tree Network with No 4-Cycles. I mean, by definition, a “tree” doesn’t have any cycles. A spanning-tree is a tree which touches all nodes in the network. So it’s… redundant to say “a tree with no cycles.” And if there are any cycles, it’s not a tree. And it doesn’t seem like the “spanning” concept is doing much work for you here, either. It seems like a better description of these networks would be Sparse, connected graphs that (locally) look like trees. Or maybe something that gets at the difference in connectivity-distributions between these observed networks, and the (posited) “core” networks. (That is, on the small scale, you don’t see any “small” cycles).

]]> By: Jason Kuznicki http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38671 Jason Kuznicki Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:56:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38671 Back when I was in high school (also with about 800 others), I'd say this probably happened more or less according to the model--with one exception: The Band. Yes, that's right, just like in _American Pie_, and I went to high school well before that film came out. The marching band was isolated from the rest of the school because they took a lot of classes together: not just music, but separate schedules for a good deal of the week. They all dated one another in some VERY close loops, so much so that even at the time we called them the Incest Family. It would be interesting to do a study on a much smaller high school and see what happened there. Back when I was in high school (also with about 800 others), I’d say this probably happened more or less according to the model—with one exception: The Band. Yes, that’s right, just like in American Pie, and I went to high school well before that film came out. The marching band was isolated from the rest of the school because they took a lot of classes together: not just music, but separate schedules for a good deal of the week. They all dated one another in some VERY close loops, so much so that even at the time we called them the Incest Family. It would be interesting to do a study on a much smaller high school and see what happened there.

]]> By: Eric S. http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/13/love-is-a-battlefield-spanning-tree-network-with-no-4-cycles/comment-page-1/#comment-38670 Eric S. Sat, 14 Aug 2004 06:40:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2023#comment-38670 To follow up with Sebastian... when Justin and Britany split and Justin hooked up with Cameron Diaz, didn't Britany have a fling with Cameron Diaz' ex? Sure seems like a loss of status for her and violation of a strong Yuck-factor norm. Sometimes the lines in our supermarket are REALLY long... To follow up with Sebastian… when Justin and Britany split and Justin hooked up with Cameron Diaz, didn’t Britany have a fling with Cameron Diaz’ ex? Sure seems like a loss of status for her and violation of a strong Yuck-factor norm. Sometimes the lines in our supermarket are REALLY long…

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