Comments on: Silence on Najaf http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 05:35:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: dipnut http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40246 dipnut Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:23:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40246 <I>dipnut, for someone too gutless to post under your own name, you do a mean line in insults.</I> "Gun-fearing wussy" isn't an insult, John. I should think you'd wear it with pride. As for my name, you may look it up anytime. Seriously: review all the comments I've ever made at CT. I've taken a lot of abuse from your commenters, and come back with the gentle answer which turneth away wrath, as often as not. I really do feel bad about that crack regarding Australia. Australia has stood by us splendidly, and I'm ashamed. I'm just upset by this al-Sadr business. It marks the first major defeat in the war; a totally unjustified pre-emptive surrender. We (by which I mostly mean, Iraqis) will pay dearly for it. You've signed on to some disastrous foolishness, John. So I'll ask you the same question I asked Daniel. You don't owe me an answer, by the way. What do you know about war, and how do you know it? dipnut, for someone too gutless to post under your own name, you do a mean line in insults. “Gun-fearing wussy” isn’t an insult, John. I should think you’d wear it with pride. As for my name, you may look it up anytime. Seriously: review all the comments I’ve ever made at CT. I’ve taken a lot of abuse from your commenters, and come back with the gentle answer which turneth away wrath, as often as not. I really do feel bad about that crack regarding Australia. Australia has stood by us splendidly, and I’m ashamed. I’m just upset by this al-Sadr business. It marks the first major defeat in the war; a totally unjustified pre-emptive surrender. We (by which I mostly mean, Iraqis) will pay dearly for it. You’ve signed on to some disastrous foolishness, John. So I’ll ask you the same question I asked Daniel. You don’t owe me an answer, by the way. What do you know about war, and how do you know it?

]]> By: look who's talking http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40245 look who's talking Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:07:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40245 John Quiggin: The content of your own weblog has no bearing on the bias of Crooked Timber. According to Google, Crooked Timber mentions Palestine more than twice as often as it mentions Tibet, Chechnya and Kashmir, together. If these areas were not in the news, that would in itself be something to write about, just as Sudan would have been something to write about when it was not in the news. Chechnya has been in the news a lot recently. Can Iraqis not be liberal/left? What about journalists? 'The American pro-war blogs seem to have dropped everything in favour of endless comment on the Kerry/SBV affair' = false John Quiggin: The content of your own weblog has no bearing on the bias of Crooked Timber. According to Google, Crooked Timber mentions Palestine more than twice as often as it mentions Tibet, Chechnya and Kashmir, together. If these areas were not in the news, that would in itself be something to write about, just as Sudan would have been something to write about when it was not in the news. Chechnya has been in the news a lot recently. Can Iraqis not be liberal/left? What about journalists? ‘The American pro-war blogs seem to have dropped everything in favour of endless comment on the Kerry/SBV affair’ = false

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40244 John Quiggin Tue, 31 Aug 2004 03:58:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40244 dipnut, for someone too gutless to post under your own name, you do a mean line in insults. I don't know how I'll carry on after this. dipnut, for someone too gutless to post under your own name, you do a mean line in insults. I don’t know how I’ll carry on after this.

]]> By: dipnut http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40243 dipnut Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:23:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40243 Nelc, you might have noticed that I left RPGs off the list of weapons that are costly to train with. Still, at $40 a shot, they're out of the reach of Quiggin's supposed angry peasants. You hold up Afghanistan and Somalia as examples of piss-broke people getting reasonably proficient with semi-serious weapons. But the Somalis were supported by bin Laden back when he had money, and the Afghans were sponsored by the US, and later by Saudi Arabia. I suppose it's possible the Mahdi fighters are supplied with materiel looted from Saddam's army. But Tehran has method, motive, and opportunity to support them; and several Iraqi web logs maintain that the Mahdi are Iranian interlopers. Anybody got any cites regarding looting of Iraq's military hardware? It certainly hasn't been a front-page issue. <i>The number of Iraqis who know how to operate belt-fed MGs, RPGs or mortars, all cheap and ubiquitous weapons in any army, must run into six figures.</i> Iraq's total military strength was on the low side of half a million, before the invasion. Guess again. Nelc, you might have noticed that I left RPGs off the list of weapons that are costly to train with. Still, at $40 a shot, they’re out of the reach of Quiggin’s supposed angry peasants. You hold up Afghanistan and Somalia as examples of piss-broke people getting reasonably proficient with semi-serious weapons. But the Somalis were supported by bin Laden back when he had money, and the Afghans were sponsored by the US, and later by Saudi Arabia. I suppose it’s possible the Mahdi fighters are supplied with materiel looted from Saddam’s army. But Tehran has method, motive, and opportunity to support them; and several Iraqi web logs maintain that the Mahdi are Iranian interlopers. Anybody got any cites regarding looting of Iraq’s military hardware? It certainly hasn’t been a front-page issue. The number of Iraqis who know how to operate belt-fed MGs, RPGs or mortars, all cheap and ubiquitous weapons in any army, must run into six figures. Iraq’s total military strength was on the low side of half a million, before the invasion. Guess again.

]]> By: dipnut http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40242 dipnut Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:00:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40242 <I>Australians are from one of those ‘gun-fearing wussy countries’, eh? Mention that to the next Australian you meet and I’ll pay your subsequent dental bills. Mention it to a member of the RAR and I’ll see if I can chip in some money for your wheelchair.</I> Point taken, Dan. I apologize, and amend my statement as follows: John Quiggin, specifically, is a gun-fearing wussy. Australians are from one of those ‘gun-fearing wussy countries’, eh? Mention that to the next Australian you meet and I’ll pay your subsequent dental bills. Mention it to a member of the RAR and I’ll see if I can chip in some money for your wheelchair. Point taken, Dan. I apologize, and amend my statement as follows: John Quiggin, specifically, is a gun-fearing wussy.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40241 John Quiggin Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:45:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40241 There's not much news from Tibet, which tends to mean not much blogging, but I did offer the <a href="http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/001926.html">following prediction a few months ago</a>, which generated some lively discussion<blockquote>Tibet is not yet independent, but it seems safe to predict that it will become so not long after the Communist Party loses power in China. </blockquote> I've mentioned the Kashmir situation a couple of times on my own blog, though again there doesn't seem to be much news at present. There’s not much news from Tibet, which tends to mean not much blogging, but I did offer the following prediction a few months ago, which generated some lively discussion
Tibet is not yet independent, but it seems safe to predict that it will become so not long after the Communist Party loses power in China.
I’ve mentioned the Kashmir situation a couple of times on my own blog, though again there doesn’t seem to be much news at present.

]]> By: look who's talking http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40240 look who's talking Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:51:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40240 Can Iraqis not be liberal/left? What about journalists? Can Iraqis not be liberal/left? What about journalists?

]]> By: Look Who's Talking http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40239 Look Who's Talking Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:48:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40239 1. What you mean is that Chris followed up on this with a post which he was sure was untrue. Wow. 2. Has Kashmir nothing to do with world events? How many posts, comments or mentions of Tibet can you recall? Is Chechya so rarely mentioned because Crooked Timber only deals with subjects which are central to the (western) world? 3. Let's hear what Chris has got to say for himself. 1. What you mean is that Chris followed up on this with a post which he was sure was untrue. Wow. 2. Has Kashmir nothing to do with world events? How many posts, comments or mentions of Tibet can you recall? Is Chechya so rarely mentioned because Crooked Timber only deals with subjects which are central to the (western) world? 3. Let’s hear what Chris has got to say for himself.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40238 John Quiggin Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:00:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40238 1. My critique of the Najaf campaign was specifically directed at the left-liberal 'moral' case for the war and Chris followed up on this 2. If you look, you'll find very few posts on CT that are directly focused on Israel-Palestine. The issue comes up all the time because of its centrality in world events, not because we focus on it. 1. My critique of the Najaf campaign was specifically directed at the left-liberal ‘moral’ case for the war and Chris followed up on this 2. If you look, you’ll find very few posts on CT that are directly focused on Israel-Palestine. The issue comes up all the time because of its centrality in world events, not because we focus on it.

]]> By: Look Who's Talking http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40237 Look Who's Talking Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:29:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40237 Dear Chris Bertram, 1. Your get-out clause — > — makes me wonder why you extrapolated from observations which you already knew were inaccurate. 2. You focus exclusively on liberal/left bloggers, suppressing the fact that many other pro-war blogs, such as Instapundit, Jeff Jarvis, Tech Central, and Mick Hartley, have covered Najaf. You focus exclusively on bloggers, which suppresses the fact that journalists such as David Aaronovitch and Johann Hari have written on Najaf. And you focus exclusively on British and American bloggers, suppressing the fact that Iraqi blogs, such as Iraq the Model, Healing Iraq, Salam Pax and Hammorabi, have written extensively about Najaf. Bias is good because it inadvertently says a lot about the person who is biased. 3. Bias is good because it inadvertently says a lot about the website which is biased. Why is Crooked Timber so interested in Palestine/Israel, yet so little interested in Chechnya, Kashmir, Tibet, and a hundred other conflicts? (John, making this point with respect to an individual would be unfair.) Regards, LWT Dear Chris Bertram, 1. Your get-out clause — > — makes me wonder why you extrapolated from observations which you already knew were inaccurate. 2. You focus exclusively on liberal/left bloggers, suppressing the fact that many other pro-war blogs, such as Instapundit, Jeff Jarvis, Tech Central, and Mick Hartley, have covered Najaf. You focus exclusively on bloggers, which suppresses the fact that journalists such as David Aaronovitch and Johann Hari have written on Najaf. And you focus exclusively on British and American bloggers, suppressing the fact that Iraqi blogs, such as Iraq the Model, Healing Iraq, Salam Pax and Hammorabi, have written extensively about Najaf. Bias is good because it inadvertently says a lot about the person who is biased. 3. Bias is good because it inadvertently says a lot about the website which is biased. Why is Crooked Timber so interested in Palestine/Israel, yet so little interested in Chechnya, Kashmir, Tibet, and a hundred other conflicts? (John, making this point with respect to an individual would be unfair.) Regards, LWT

]]> By: NelC http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40236 NelC Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:46:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40236 Dipnut, the Iraqi army was one of the largest armies in the region (maybe Iran's was bigger, I don't recall), and they fought a fairly long-running war against Iran. The number of Iraqis who know how to operate belt-fed MGs, RPGs or mortars, all cheap and ubiquitous weapons in any army, must run into six figures. And training new blood isn't that expensive; we're not talking Top Gun here. If poverty-stricken Afghans could learn how to use mortars, RPGs and MGs during the Soviet occupation, and Somalis could do the same during their troubles, then I'm sure that somewhat better-off Iraqis could afford to do the same. And RPGs were designed by an unsung genius to be simple to use by any uneducated conscript. You just estimate the range, line up the target in the sights and press the trigger. If it's really close, or you're just laying down suppressive fire, omit step one. I seem to recall that the rounds are dirt-cheap: $40? Wouldn't need more than a half-dozen rounds to train up to adequate accuracy, I'd think. I spend more on my language lessons. Dipnut, the Iraqi army was one of the largest armies in the region (maybe Iran’s was bigger, I don’t recall), and they fought a fairly long-running war against Iran. The number of Iraqis who know how to operate belt-fed MGs, RPGs or mortars, all cheap and ubiquitous weapons in any army, must run into six figures. And training new blood isn’t that expensive; we’re not talking Top Gun here. If poverty-stricken Afghans could learn how to use mortars, RPGs and MGs during the Soviet occupation, and Somalis could do the same during their troubles, then I’m sure that somewhat better-off Iraqis could afford to do the same. And RPGs were designed by an unsung genius to be simple to use by any uneducated conscript. You just estimate the range, line up the target in the sights and press the trigger. If it’s really close, or you’re just laying down suppressive fire, omit step one. I seem to recall that the rounds are dirt-cheap: $40? Wouldn’t need more than a half-dozen rounds to train up to adequate accuracy, I’d think. I spend more on my language lessons.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40235 John Quiggin Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:19:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40235 " And a ‘belt-fed machine-gun’ is evidence of logistical support from another country? Nurse, Mr Dipnut’s medication." Dan, I think you must have missed the formal surrender of the Iraqi Army when they handed over all their machine guns for destruction. It was just about the time Judith Miller found the WMDs, hidden in the UN black helicopters. ” And a ‘belt-fed machine-gun’ is evidence of logistical support from another country? Nurse, Mr Dipnut’s medication.” Dan, I think you must have missed the formal surrender of the Iraqi Army when they handed over all their machine guns for destruction. It was just about the time Judith Miller found the WMDs, hidden in the UN black helicopters.

]]> By: Dan Hardie http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40234 Dan Hardie Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:54:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40234 Dipnut, Australians are from one of those 'gun-fearing wussy countries', eh? Mention that to the next Australian you meet and I'll pay your subsequent dental bills. Mention it to a member of the RAR and I'll see if I can chip in some money for your wheelchair. And a 'belt-fed machine-gun' is evidence of logistical support from another country? Nurse, Mr Dipnut's medication. Dipnut, Australians are from one of those ‘gun-fearing wussy countries’, eh? Mention that to the next Australian you meet and I’ll pay your subsequent dental bills. Mention it to a member of the RAR and I’ll see if I can chip in some money for your wheelchair. And a ‘belt-fed machine-gun’ is evidence of logistical support from another country? Nurse, Mr Dipnut’s medication.

]]> By: Ethesis http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40233 Ethesis Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:20:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40233 dipnut -- thanks. If you've followed other posts of mine, I don't always agree with the things I link to -- I want feedback on them so I know whether or not to invest more time in thinking about them or considering them. You've helped me validate this one. Appreciate your thoughts. dipnut—thanks. If you’ve followed other posts of mine, I don’t always agree with the things I link to—I want feedback on them so I know whether or not to invest more time in thinking about them or considering them. You’ve helped me validate this one. Appreciate your thoughts.

]]> By: dipnut http://crookedtimber.org/2004/08/27/silence-on-najaf/comment-page-2/#comment-40232 dipnut Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:47:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2092#comment-40232 Ethesis, there is reason to trust reports that the Mahdi Army is (was?) made up largely of foreigners, specifically Iranians, and not disgruntled Iraqis as Quiggin assumes. This idea is strongly supported by information which is not in doubt: the Mahdi Army have serious weapons. We know they have mortars and RPGs. The New York Times ran a picture of one of them with a belt-fed machine gun. Having such weapons (and ammunition to feed them with) suggests far stronger logistical support than an irregular "people's army" could cobble up on short notice, especially when you consider they're supposed to be angry because they're unemployed and broke. Then there's the matter of expertise. Guns don't shoot themselves; it takes a skilled operator to get any use out of a mortar or a machine gun; skill needs training and practice, which is expensive. Quiggin, of course, is from one of those gun-fearing wussy countries, so these aren't the kinds of things which would naturally occur to him. But the Mahdi have massive assistance from somewhere, and Tehran is the sensible guess. Ethesis, there is reason to trust reports that the Mahdi Army is (was?) made up largely of foreigners, specifically Iranians, and not disgruntled Iraqis as Quiggin assumes. This idea is strongly supported by information which is not in doubt: the Mahdi Army have serious weapons. We know they have mortars and RPGs. The New York Times ran a picture of one of them with a belt-fed machine gun. Having such weapons (and ammunition to feed them with) suggests far stronger logistical support than an irregular “people’s army” could cobble up on short notice, especially when you consider they’re supposed to be angry because they’re unemployed and broke. Then there’s the matter of expertise. Guns don’t shoot themselves; it takes a skilled operator to get any use out of a mortar or a machine gun; skill needs training and practice, which is expensive. Quiggin, of course, is from one of those gun-fearing wussy countries, so these aren’t the kinds of things which would naturally occur to him. But the Mahdi have massive assistance from somewhere, and Tehran is the sensible guess.

]]>