Comments on: Election notes from Oz http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:15:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Nathan McDonald http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-42321 Nathan McDonald Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:50:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2175#comment-42321 Giles, we may not have suffered any troop casualties in Iraq, but we may suffer more attacks such as the recent one in Jakarta and Bali in 2002. And we suffer the indignity of being part of coalition of occupying powers in a country descending into civil war. As British Army Colonel Tim Collins (quoted <a href="http://www.perfect.co.uk/2004/09/col-collins-change-of-opinion">here</a>) has said: "There was very little preparation or thought given to what would follow on from the invasion." The question is whether or not we are helping or hindering by maintaining our presence. On the basis of Abu Ghraib, I can't see how we are helping. And on the basis of recent events, we appear to be harming our own interests. <blockquote><i>"its of geoppolitical [sic] interest for anyone to defend an ally since that is how alliances are formed"</i></blockquote> Sorry, who are we 'defending' by invading Iraq? And I am certain that the alliance with the US is founded on more than our membership of the coalition of the willing. Think of Pine Gap and uranium reserves to state the most obvious examples. Meanwhile, in the words of <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/29/1040511254630.html">Robert Manne</a>, Australia's actions have ‘reinforced throughout South-East Asia the most unhelpful portrait possible of Australia, as an anti-Muslim Western outpost acting as proxy for American power’. If you want more on that particular cricket match, try <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/indonesia/Story/0,2763,1301255,00.html">this story</a>. You question Jakarta's interest in Iraq, which is absurd. Aside from the fact that conflict in the Middle East affects the entire planet in some way, I will give you a hint: Indonesia is the most populous Muslim nation in the world. Giles, we may not have suffered any troop casualties in Iraq, but we may suffer more attacks such as the recent one in Jakarta and Bali in 2002. And we suffer the indignity of being part of coalition of occupying powers in a country descending into civil war. As British Army Colonel Tim Collins (quoted here) has said: “There was very little preparation or thought given to what would follow on from the invasion.” The question is whether or not we are helping or hindering by maintaining our presence. On the basis of Abu Ghraib, I can’t see how we are helping. And on the basis of recent events, we appear to be harming our own interests.
“its of geoppolitical [sic] interest for anyone to defend an ally since that is how alliances are formed”
Sorry, who are we ‘defending’ by invading Iraq? And I am certain that the alliance with the US is founded on more than our membership of the coalition of the willing. Think of Pine Gap and uranium reserves to state the most obvious examples. Meanwhile, in the words of Robert Manne, Australia’s actions have ‘reinforced throughout South-East Asia the most unhelpful portrait possible of Australia, as an anti-Muslim Western outpost acting as proxy for American power’. If you want more on that particular cricket match, try this story. You question Jakarta’s interest in Iraq, which is absurd. Aside from the fact that conflict in the Middle East affects the entire planet in some way, I will give you a hint: Indonesia is the most populous Muslim nation in the world.

]]> By: David Tiley http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-42320 David Tiley Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:47:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2175#comment-42320 We've been using the rhetoric of sacrifice at least since Gallipoli. And yes, treaties are important, but mostly because they codify a group of mutual interests. Can you imagine the US going to war over (to use your example) Christmas island, solely because we are linked by Anzus? It is fair to say that the war in Iraq has pissed off the entire Arab world. It is a pretty big cricket tour. You can't seriously argue that the Indonesians don't take our support for the war in Iraq into account. And we bought the FTA by fighting in Iraq? Some privilege. We’ve been using the rhetoric of sacrifice at least since Gallipoli. And yes, treaties are important, but mostly because they codify a group of mutual interests. Can you imagine the US going to war over (to use your example) Christmas island, solely because we are linked by Anzus? It is fair to say that the war in Iraq has pissed off the entire Arab world. It is a pretty big cricket tour. You can’t seriously argue that the Indonesians don’t take our support for the war in Iraq into account. And we bought the FTA by fighting in Iraq? Some privilege.

]]> By: Giles http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-42319 Giles Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:21:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2175#comment-42319 "We don’t buy support by bleeding for our allies." How is Australia bleeding for its allies? - they've suffered a pretty much zero casualty rate for which they've bought the favor of alot of allies and an FTA. And its of geoppolitical interest for anyone to defend an ally since that is how alliances are formed. As for asking the question "how doe this play in Jakarta" it migh be worth asking what interest Jakarta has in Iraq that are afffected by the conflict there? None I'd say, in much the same way that you would ignore Jakarta's views if they say, diapprived of a cricket tour to India. “We don’t buy support by bleeding for our allies.” How is Australia bleeding for its allies? – they’ve suffered a pretty much zero casualty rate for which they’ve bought the favor of alot of allies and an FTA. And its of geoppolitical interest for anyone to defend an ally since that is how alliances are formed. As for asking the question “how doe this play in Jakarta” it migh be worth asking what interest Jakarta has in Iraq that are afffected by the conflict there? None I’d say, in much the same way that you would ignore Jakarta’s views if they say, diapprived of a cricket tour to India.

]]> By: David Tiley http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-42318 David Tiley Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:47:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2175#comment-42318 We don't buy support by bleeding for our allies. They would bleed for us only if they perceive it to be of geopolitical value. As we do - sacrificing our army to make Daddy like us. The contrary does work however. We can make the nations of our own region dislike us. What happened when we announced the cruise missile purchase? How do you think the Iraq thing plays in the Indonesian cabinet? We may well accept that we antagonise our neighbours, as we did over East Timor. But let's do it for good reason. We don’t buy support by bleeding for our allies. They would bleed for us only if they perceive it to be of geopolitical value. As we do – sacrificing our army to make Daddy like us. The contrary does work however. We can make the nations of our own region dislike us. What happened when we announced the cruise missile purchase? How do you think the Iraq thing plays in the Indonesian cabinet? We may well accept that we antagonise our neighbours, as we did over East Timor. But let’s do it for good reason.

]]> By: Giles http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-42317 Giles Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:36:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2175#comment-42317 The problem with this thesis is that Australia only has 800 military personnle in the area - so its pushjing it a bit to say its diverting a large proportion of rescources that could be better used elsewhere (like where?). The other point is the obivous one that if Australia chooses to only think of its self, it cant expect others to help it. And does it think it could cope with, say an invasion of Christmas Island on its own? The problem with this thesis is that Australia only has 800 military personnle in the area – so its pushjing it a bit to say its diverting a large proportion of rescources that could be better used elsewhere (like where?). The other point is the obivous one that if Australia chooses to only think of its self, it cant expect others to help it. And does it think it could cope with, say an invasion of Christmas Island on its own?

]]> By: Alan http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/13/election-notes-from-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-42316 Alan Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:47:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2175#comment-42316 Given that the publicly anounced reasons for the Australian government's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are questionable, it is worth asking what the real reasons might be. Here is one hypothesis. The Australian Prime Minister lived with his parents until well into his thirties and left only to live with his wife, who is tremendously powerful albeit behind the scenes. This is the classic "Mummy's Boy". Characteristic of a "Mummy's Boy" is an unconscious need to attach himself to, and follow, a more powerful male. Along came Bush. Pop psychology? Maybe. Do Howard's personal inadequacies shape Australia's national security strategy? Maybe. Given that the publicly anounced reasons for the Australian government’s actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are questionable, it is worth asking what the real reasons might be. Here is one hypothesis. The Australian Prime Minister lived with his parents until well into his thirties and left only to live with his wife, who is tremendously powerful albeit behind the scenes. This is the classic “Mummy’s Boy”. Characteristic of a “Mummy’s Boy” is an unconscious need to attach himself to, and follow, a more powerful male. Along came Bush. Pop psychology? Maybe. Do Howard’s personal inadequacies shape Australia’s national security strategy? Maybe.

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