Comments on: Sadr sharia courts – information request http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 05:35:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: maureen http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43318 maureen Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:04:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43318 I recall that Agence France Press had a reporter throughout all this in the centre of Najaf - BBC was carrying quite a bit from him - so has anyone checked the francophone media? I recall that Agence France Press had a reporter throughout all this in the centre of Najaf – BBC was carrying quite a bit from him – so has anyone checked the francophone media?

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43317 abb1 Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:15:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43317 A resistance group fighting foreign occupation gets besieged in a small town by the overwhelming (overwhelming-squared, overwhelming beyond imagination) foreign military force; attacked by bombs, tanks, missiles, snipers, god knows what else. Infiltrated by 15-year old spies hired by the occupying forces: <blockquote> Ahmed tells how he and Sameer discovered a 15-year old boy who had been acting as a spy for the Americans. He had been carrying a GPS (global positioning system) device in his sleeve, marking the positions of all the Mahdi Army units in the neighborhood. Ahmed and Sameer chased the boy down, and handed him over to the Mahdi Army, knowing they would probably torture and kill him. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002008476_battleground18.html </blockquote> And you choose to research the alleged atrocities committed by ... the resistance fighters? Nice going, Daniel. A resistance group fighting foreign occupation gets besieged in a small town by the overwhelming (overwhelming-squared, overwhelming beyond imagination) foreign military force; attacked by bombs, tanks, missiles, snipers, god knows what else. Infiltrated by 15-year old spies hired by the occupying forces:
Ahmed tells how he and Sameer discovered a 15-year old boy who had been acting as a spy for the Americans. He had been carrying a GPS (global positioning system) device in his sleeve, marking the positions of all the Mahdi Army units in the neighborhood. Ahmed and Sameer chased the boy down, and handed him over to the Mahdi Army, knowing they would probably torture and kill him. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002008476_battleground18.html
And you choose to research the alleged atrocities committed by … the resistance fighters? Nice going, Daniel.

]]> By: ruralsaturday http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43316 ruralsaturday Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:23:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43316 "Sadr is a thug" "Sadr is a thug" "Sadr is a thug" Repeat as necessary. On to Iran! Get Syria while the noise and heat of that obscure the front pages! Egypt will fall without a shot! Kingdom Come! “Sadr is a thug” “Sadr is a thug” “Sadr is a thug” Repeat as necessary. On to Iran! Get Syria while the noise and heat of that obscure the front pages! Egypt will fall without a shot! Kingdom Come!

]]> By: MQ http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43315 MQ Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:09:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43315 I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but it seems like his civilian body count is lower than ours (the U.S. occupations). Of course, one needs to remember that all the civilians we killed while fighting him are *actually his fault*, because he provoked us -- I get it, I get it. I’m going to get flamed for saying this, but it seems like his civilian body count is lower than ours (the U.S. occupations). Of course, one needs to remember that all the civilians we killed while fighting him are actually his fault, because he provoked us—I get it, I get it.

]]> By: KC Jones http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43314 KC Jones Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:07:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43314 There've been a few short reports included in the IWPR's Iraqi Press Monitor. See the 09 Sep 04 edition here: http://www.iwpr.net/archive/ipm/ipm_153.html Its interesting to note that accoriding to that report, the anti-Sadr marches in Najaf were in part to demand more information about the victims from Muqtada There’ve been a few short reports included in the IWPR’s Iraqi Press Monitor. See the 09 Sep 04 edition here: http://www.iwpr.net/archive/ipm/ipm_153.html Its interesting to note that accoriding to that report, the anti-Sadr marches in Najaf were in part to demand more information about the victims from Muqtada

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43313 Chris Bertram Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:01:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43313 I didn't go for a fancy combination of search words but went to the "newsnow feed":http://www.newsnow.co.uk/ , did a search on "Sadr" and then scrolled through looking for likely headlines. I didn’t go for a fancy combination of search words but went to the newsnow feed href=”http://www.newsnow.co.uk/” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.newsnow.co.uk/ , did a search on “Sadr” and then scrolled through looking for likely headlines.

]]> By: Motoko http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43312 Motoko Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:41:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43312 For what it's worth, <a href="http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=572896&section=news">Reuters</a> (August 27) quoted a cleric who said it was a set-up: "We denounce this charge. This government is very capable of trying to frame us. Those corpses are our fighters which we could not wash or move because the Iraqi government and Americans cut off the electricity and water," he said. "There is also one woman who was passing by the shrine and killed by a sniper. We can identify each and every body." For what it’s worth, Reuters (August 27) quoted a cleric who said it was a set-up: “We denounce this charge. This government is very capable of trying to frame us. Those corpses are our fighters which we could not wash or move because the Iraqi government and Americans cut off the electricity and water,” he said. “There is also one woman who was passing by the shrine and killed by a sniper. We can identify each and every body.”

]]> By: Dan Hardie http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43311 Dan Hardie Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:39:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43311 For reasons why there haven't been more enquiries into the atrocity allegations, I'd also add c)- Sistani's nominees will now be running Najaf, and if Sistani wants to keep al-Sadr, whom he seems to despise, in the political process, he will discourage enquiry into Sadrist atrocities. As for it being a sharia court or Muqtada's private star chamber: if he'll do whatever he can get away with and point to the Koran for justifcation. The distinction between Muqtada's crime-oriented atrocities and his Islamically-motivated atrocities seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. The thugs currently marauding in the Darfur, like the thugs unleashed over the last decade in the southern Sudan, are both claiming to be 'better', ie more Wah'habi, Muslims than their victims and are looting their property. Who says virtue has to be its own reward? For reasons why there haven’t been more enquiries into the atrocity allegations, I’d also add c)- Sistani’s nominees will now be running Najaf, and if Sistani wants to keep al-Sadr, whom he seems to despise, in the political process, he will discourage enquiry into Sadrist atrocities. As for it being a sharia court or Muqtada’s private star chamber: if he’ll do whatever he can get away with and point to the Koran for justifcation. The distinction between Muqtada’s crime-oriented atrocities and his Islamically-motivated atrocities seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. The thugs currently marauding in the Darfur, like the thugs unleashed over the last decade in the southern Sudan, are both claiming to be ‘better’, ie more Wah’habi, Muslims than their victims and are looting their property. Who says virtue has to be its own reward?

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43310 dsquared Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:25:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43310 Thanks Dan. In retrospect, the Najaf-is-too-dangerous thing ought to have been obvious to me. What I'm really interested in is the distinction between atrocities committed by Sadr in his capacity as a chancer, thug and wannabe warlord, and specifically <i>Islamic</i> atrocities. In other words, whether this "court" was a credible preview of the sort of sharia law that we might expect in Iraq if Sadr and gang were brought into the political process, or whether it was just Muqtada's private star chamber. At the moment, the evidence seems to be slanting in the direction of the second. Thanks Dan. In retrospect, the Najaf-is-too-dangerous thing ought to have been obvious to me. What I’m really interested in is the distinction between atrocities committed by Sadr in his capacity as a chancer, thug and wannabe warlord, and specifically Islamic atrocities. In other words, whether this “court” was a credible preview of the sort of sharia law that we might expect in Iraq if Sadr and gang were brought into the political process, or whether it was just Muqtada’s private star chamber. At the moment, the evidence seems to be slanting in the direction of the second.

]]> By: Dan Hardie http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43309 Dan Hardie Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:19:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43309 I've found one:http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040901-124008-3160r.htm This article in the Washington Times from 1st September was based on a secret, and leaked, 'US Army Intelligence report'. It's been referred to elsewhere, eg in the Lebanese Daily Star, but I haven't seen it picked up by any large papers or broadcasting organisations. (Yes, I do know the Moonies own the WT, no that does't necessarily mean anything they print is lies.) I don't quite know if it counts, since it was published after 28th August, but we don't know when the intelligence report it was based on was compiled, and what subsequent intelligence reports have concluded. I think it's quite possible that Sadr did commit atrocities, but that there has been no follow-up because: a) the US military has decided to go with Sistani's policy of coming to an 'understanding with Sadr' and leaving him alone as long as he doesn't come out in open revolt- and publicising any murders he may have committed does rather conflict with this; b) Western journalists aren't going to Najaf to check because Najaf right now is a dangerous place to be a white-skinned foreigner. On the other hand, maybe Sadr- at least in Najaf- didn't commit atrocities, although we know he has a thuggish militia at his command. Two key paragraphs from the WT report: 'The source said that while it appears certain that the bodies exist, the circumstances of when and where the people were killed, and by whom, remained unknown yesterday. ' "We don't have a complete picture of where they came from," the officer said. "We're trying to uncover what really happened before we are able to release information." ' And Zeyad on 'Healing Iraq' (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/ )thought the stories were credible and passed on rumours from a friend of his who was in Najaf at the time: 'Bodies of mutilated and executed policemen were found in Sadr's 'legal court', also the bodies of 4 women who were seriously disfigured. Our friend said that Abdul-Sattar Al-Bahadili, who was Sadr's former representative in Basrah (the one who called for kidnappings of British female soldiers), was in charge of the court. He ordered summary executions and beat people with a rubber truncheon when they disobeyed his orders. 'I will try to get the photos and post them here.' Maybe Sadr committed atrocities and got away with it because he is now too big to touch; maybe he didn't. But solid news seems hard to get hold of on this topic. I’ve found one:http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040901-124008-3160r.htm This article in the Washington Times from 1st September was based on a secret, and leaked, ‘US Army Intelligence report’. It’s been referred to elsewhere, eg in the Lebanese Daily Star, but I haven’t seen it picked up by any large papers or broadcasting organisations. (Yes, I do know the Moonies own the WT, no that does’t necessarily mean anything they print is lies.) I don’t quite know if it counts, since it was published after 28th August, but we don’t know when the intelligence report it was based on was compiled, and what subsequent intelligence reports have concluded. I think it’s quite possible that Sadr did commit atrocities, but that there has been no follow-up because: a) the US military has decided to go with Sistani’s policy of coming to an ‘understanding with Sadr’ and leaving him alone as long as he doesn’t come out in open revolt- and publicising any murders he may have committed does rather conflict with this; b) Western journalists aren’t going to Najaf to check because Najaf right now is a dangerous place to be a white-skinned foreigner. On the other hand, maybe Sadr- at least in Najaf- didn’t commit atrocities, although we know he has a thuggish militia at his command. Two key paragraphs from the WT report: ‘The source said that while it appears certain that the bodies exist, the circumstances of when and where the people were killed, and by whom, remained unknown yesterday. ’ “We don’t have a complete picture of where they came from,” the officer said. “We’re trying to uncover what really happened before we are able to release information.” ’ And Zeyad on ‘Healing Iraq’ (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/ )thought the stories were credible and passed on rumours from a friend of his who was in Najaf at the time: ‘Bodies of mutilated and executed policemen were found in Sadr’s ‘legal court’, also the bodies of 4 women who were seriously disfigured. Our friend said that Abdul-Sattar Al-Bahadili, who was Sadr’s former representative in Basrah (the one who called for kidnappings of British female soldiers), was in charge of the court. He ordered summary executions and beat people with a rubber truncheon when they disobeyed his orders. ‘I will try to get the photos and post them here.’ Maybe Sadr committed atrocities and got away with it because he is now too big to touch; maybe he didn’t. But solid news seems hard to get hold of on this topic.

]]> By: Dan Hardie http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43308 Dan Hardie Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:18:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43308 I've found one:http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040901-124008-3160r.htm This article in the Washington Times from 1st September was based on a secret, and leaked, 'US Army Intelligence report'. It's been referred to elsewhere, eg in the Lebanese Daily Star, but I haven't seen it picked up by any large papers or broadcasting organisations. (Yes, I do know the Moonies own the WT, no that does't necessarily mean anything they print is lies.) I don't quite know if it counts, since it was published after 28th August, but we don't know when the intelligence report it was based on was compiled, and what subsequent intelligence reports have concluded. I think it's quite possible that Sadr did commit atrocities, but that there has been no follow-up because: a) the US military has decided to go with Sistani's policy of coming to an 'understanding with Sadr' and leaving him alone as long as he doesn't come out in open revolt- and publicising any murders he may have committed does rather conflict with this; b) Western journalists aren't going to Najaf to check because Najaf right now is a dangerous place to be a white-skinned foreigner. On the other hand, maybe Sadr- at least in Najaf- didn't commit atrocities, although we know he has a thuggish militia at his command. Two key paragraphs from the WT report: 'The source said that while it appears certain that the bodies exist, the circumstances of when and where the people were killed, and by whom, remained unknown yesterday. ' "We don't have a complete picture of where they came from," the officer said. "We're trying to uncover what really happened before we are able to release information." ' And Zeyad on 'Healing Iraq' (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/ )thought the stories were credible and passed on rumours from a friend of his who was in Najaf at the time: 'Bodies of mutilated and executed policemen were found in Sadr's 'legal court', also the bodies of 4 women who were seriously disfigured. Our friend said that Abdul-Sattar Al-Bahadili, who was Sadr's former representative in Basrah (the one who called for kidnappings of British female soldiers), was in charge of the court. He ordered summary executions and beat people with a rubber truncheon when they disobeyed his orders. 'I will try to get the photos and post them here.' Maybe Sadr committed atrocities and got away with it because he is now too big to touch; maybe he didn't. But solid news seems hard to get hold of on this topic. I’ve found one:http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040901-124008-3160r.htm This article in the Washington Times from 1st September was based on a secret, and leaked, ‘US Army Intelligence report’. It’s been referred to elsewhere, eg in the Lebanese Daily Star, but I haven’t seen it picked up by any large papers or broadcasting organisations. (Yes, I do know the Moonies own the WT, no that does’t necessarily mean anything they print is lies.) I don’t quite know if it counts, since it was published after 28th August, but we don’t know when the intelligence report it was based on was compiled, and what subsequent intelligence reports have concluded. I think it’s quite possible that Sadr did commit atrocities, but that there has been no follow-up because: a) the US military has decided to go with Sistani’s policy of coming to an ‘understanding with Sadr’ and leaving him alone as long as he doesn’t come out in open revolt- and publicising any murders he may have committed does rather conflict with this; b) Western journalists aren’t going to Najaf to check because Najaf right now is a dangerous place to be a white-skinned foreigner. On the other hand, maybe Sadr- at least in Najaf- didn’t commit atrocities, although we know he has a thuggish militia at his command. Two key paragraphs from the WT report: ‘The source said that while it appears certain that the bodies exist, the circumstances of when and where the people were killed, and by whom, remained unknown yesterday. ’ “We don’t have a complete picture of where they came from,” the officer said. “We’re trying to uncover what really happened before we are able to release information.” ’ And Zeyad on ‘Healing Iraq’ (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/ )thought the stories were credible and passed on rumours from a friend of his who was in Najaf at the time: ‘Bodies of mutilated and executed policemen were found in Sadr’s ‘legal court’, also the bodies of 4 women who were seriously disfigured. Our friend said that Abdul-Sattar Al-Bahadili, who was Sadr’s former representative in Basrah (the one who called for kidnappings of British female soldiers), was in charge of the court. He ordered summary executions and beat people with a rubber truncheon when they disobeyed his orders. ‘I will try to get the photos and post them here.’ Maybe Sadr committed atrocities and got away with it because he is now too big to touch; maybe he didn’t. But solid news seems hard to get hold of on this topic.

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43307 dsquared Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:14:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43307 Thanks very much. There's a lot of weird, contradictory information here; it seems very much to me as if the court has been conflated with all sorts of atrocities committed as acts of indiscipline and/or local vendettas carried out by Sadr's troops. If people were being tortured for suspicions of collaboration with coalition forces, then that's obviously bad, but this would be something carried out by Sadr himself, not by a sharia court as such, since there's no sharia law dictating that you have to knuckle under to thugs and freebooters. What search-words were you using; I really want to keep on top of this, because I think that an accurate understanding of Sadrism is going to hold a lot of the keys to the vexed "Islamism" question. Thanks very much. There’s a lot of weird, contradictory information here; it seems very much to me as if the court has been conflated with all sorts of atrocities committed as acts of indiscipline and/or local vendettas carried out by Sadr’s troops. If people were being tortured for suspicions of collaboration with coalition forces, then that’s obviously bad, but this would be something carried out by Sadr himself, not by a sharia court as such, since there’s no sharia law dictating that you have to knuckle under to thugs and freebooters. What search-words were you using; I really want to keep on top of this, because I think that an accurate understanding of Sadrism is going to hold a lot of the keys to the vexed “Islamism” question.

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/20/sadr-sharia-courts-information-request/comment-page-1/#comment-43306 Chris Bertram Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:57:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2220#comment-43306 I found a couple: "Islam Online 14 September":http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2004-09/14/article05.shtml "Associated Press 10 September ":http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/world/9625132.htm I found a couple: Islam Online 14 September href=”http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2004-09/14/article05.shtml” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2004-09/14/article05.shtml Associated Press 10 September href=”http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/world/9625132.htm” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/world/9625132.htm

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