Comments on: Revolution and Revelations http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:58:28 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: ruralsaturday http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44743 ruralsaturday Mon, 04 Oct 2004 09:43:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44743 perianwyr- Good exposition, though you don't place yourself, as speaker, in any other context vis. the material. I'm struck, again, by the parallels with biological reality that go masked in the dogma. Especially the concept of inalterable election. Born with it. That's just how it is and it can't be changed. Like visual acuity or blonde hair. There are those mystics who hint that we're confused, that this time/space thing is an illusion created by our limited field of view. That what is really going on is already done - it's changeless- <i>we're</i> going through the changes, but everybody else is back home watching so to speak. It's hard to think about, but the past is still there, five minutes ago or 50,000 years, it's right there; we're not, is all. We're here. Or, rather, here. - Interesting that as this thread developed Pat Robertson hied his portly self to Jerusalem, to praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Interesting too that the incontrovertible evidence of total system change in the global climate wasn't even brushed aside during the presidential debates, it was as though it didn't exist, as though it couldn't be. Kind of a general reaction I expect. Oh no. Whether or not the visions of John on Patmos were allegories of Roman political disintegration or earthly human fall and salvation, we're in it bigtime, we're in it prophecy or no. And the people who caused it are still running things. That seems important in a way I can't get fully ahold of, that the news is so unbelievably disheartening no one wants to talk about it, and that the guys who did it are still playing "Who dies with the most toys wins". Someone told me the parable about the rich man entering the kingdom of heaven was supposed to read "...easier for a taw to pass through the eye of a needle..." that it had been mistranslated as "camel" and made silly. But still. perianwyr- Good exposition, though you don’t place yourself, as speaker, in any other context vis. the material. I’m struck, again, by the parallels with biological reality that go masked in the dogma. Especially the concept of inalterable election. Born with it. That’s just how it is and it can’t be changed. Like visual acuity or blonde hair. There are those mystics who hint that we’re confused, that this time/space thing is an illusion created by our limited field of view. That what is really going on is already done – it’s changeless- we’re going through the changes, but everybody else is back home watching so to speak. It’s hard to think about, but the past is still there, five minutes ago or 50,000 years, it’s right there; we’re not, is all. We’re here. Or, rather, here. – Interesting that as this thread developed Pat Robertson hied his portly self to Jerusalem, to praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Interesting too that the incontrovertible evidence of total system change in the global climate wasn’t even brushed aside during the presidential debates, it was as though it didn’t exist, as though it couldn’t be. Kind of a general reaction I expect. Oh no. Whether or not the visions of John on Patmos were allegories of Roman political disintegration or earthly human fall and salvation, we’re in it bigtime, we’re in it prophecy or no. And the people who caused it are still running things. That seems important in a way I can’t get fully ahold of, that the news is so unbelievably disheartening no one wants to talk about it, and that the guys who did it are still playing “Who dies with the most toys wins”. Someone told me the parable about the rich man entering the kingdom of heaven was supposed to read “…easier for a taw to pass through the eye of a needle…” that it had been mistranslated as “camel” and made silly. But still.

]]> By: Marcus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44742 Marcus Sun, 03 Oct 2004 04:28:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44742 This is a fascinating discussion. Thanks. I have just started a Ph.D. on apocalyptic narratives in news media and film so I have responded to it on my <a href="http://possibleworlds.blogs.com/apocalyptics/2004/10/when_prophecy_f.html">Ph.D.blog: apocalyptics</a>. So I just want to make a couple of points here. I don't know if these beliefs are more popular than they used to be but they are certainly popular. <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0218/p11s01-lire.html ">A 2002 survey</a> found that a staggering 59% of American’s believed that the events predicted in the book of Revelation will actually occur in the future. Another really good book is Stephen O'Leary's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search/104-6244844-8271907?field-keywords=arguing+the+apocalypse&mode=blended&tag=kurona-20&sourceid=Mozilla-search"><em>Arguing the Apocalypse<em></em></em></a> he gives a good round-up of the history of American apocalyptic beliefs but his strong point is his rhetorical analysis. And a great website is the PBS Apocalypse site. Particularly relevant is their page on <a>The resilience of the apocalypse</a> This is a fascinating discussion. Thanks. I have just started a Ph.D. on apocalyptic narratives in news media and film so I have responded to it on my Ph.D.blog: apocalyptics. So I just want to make a couple of points here. I don’t know if these beliefs are more popular than they used to be but they are certainly popular. A 2002 survey found that a staggering 59% of American’s believed that the events predicted in the book of Revelation will actually occur in the future. Another really good book is Stephen O’Leary’s Arguing the Apocalypse he gives a good round-up of the history of American apocalyptic beliefs but his strong point is his rhetorical analysis. And a great website is the PBS Apocalypse site. Particularly relevant is their page on The resilience of the apocalypse

]]> By: JamesW http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44741 JamesW Fri, 01 Oct 2004 09:06:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44741 Most commentators here are assuming that apocalyptic ideas are exclusively found in Christianity. Christian eschatology took up a Jewish prophetic line you find in Ezekiel and Daniel. (I especially like Isaiah's vision of the messianic banquet, in which God's people will drink vintage wines to the sound of a chorus of 1000 camels.) What happened to Jewish apocalyptic? The Essenes and the rebels in the Jewish war, especially the Sicarii, were under its influnence; I suppose the tendency was largely eclipsed by rabbinic Judaism thereafter, but it pops up much later with Sabbatai Zvi. Are there any apocalyptic Jews today? Some Lubavitchers wonder whether Rabbi Menachem Schneerson was the Messiah. Are there any apocalyptic Muslims? I read that there's an apocalyptic doctrine in Buddhism. Most commentators here are assuming that apocalyptic ideas are exclusively found in Christianity. Christian eschatology took up a Jewish prophetic line you find in Ezekiel and Daniel. (I especially like Isaiah’s vision of the messianic banquet, in which God’s people will drink vintage wines to the sound of a chorus of 1000 camels.) What happened to Jewish apocalyptic? The Essenes and the rebels in the Jewish war, especially the Sicarii, were under its influnence; I suppose the tendency was largely eclipsed by rabbinic Judaism thereafter, but it pops up much later with Sabbatai Zvi. Are there any apocalyptic Jews today? Some Lubavitchers wonder whether Rabbi Menachem Schneerson was the Messiah. Are there any apocalyptic Muslims? I read that there’s an apocalyptic doctrine in Buddhism.

]]> By: James Kabala http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44740 James Kabala Fri, 01 Oct 2004 01:07:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44740 A few points: 1. Wikipedia does great service, but their article on Antichrist is not very good. 2. Contrary to both the original poster and Wikipedia, the book is not called Revelations. Depending on the translation, it is the Revelation to John, the Book of Revelation, or the Apocalypse (a greek word meaning "revelation"), but not the Book of Revelations. 3. The term Antichrist is not used in Revelation, but in one of the Epistles of John. 4. I agree with those posters who say that End Times speculation is much less popular than it once was. During the first Gulf War, there was a lot of "Saddam is the Antichrist; this is the beginning of the end" type speculation, drawing not only on Revelation but on Nostradamus and similar frauds. Even Johnny Cash recorded a song on the subject. In contrast, it seems as though 9/11 and its aftermath has produced very little speculation of this type, despite the horrific nature of the attacks and the Middle Eastern origins of the attackers. A Google search for "Bin Laden is the Antichrist" turns up a measly nineteen hits, and several of them are sites denying that Bin Laden is the Antichrist. 5. "Rapture" theory was invented in the nineteenth-century United States and is not the most literal reading of the text. Suggested reading here would be Will Catholics Be Left Behind? by Carl Olson. 6. The Book of Revelation is considered by most scholars to be an allegorical denunciation of ancient Rome, not a prophecy of the end times. 7. The things that the Bible does say about end of the world have not in themselves been falsified; specific claims about what the Biblical references mean have been falsified. Jesus told His followers that no one knew the day or the hour of His return, and attempts to calculate it have generally been discouraged, not encouraged, by mainstream Christian leaders. 8. No, John, it isn't a "logical turnaround." I think that war in Iraq was an awful idea, but there is a well-developed and detailed just war theory in Christian tradition. Would it be hypocritical to be against abortion and in favor of World War II? A few points: 1. Wikipedia does great service, but their article on Antichrist is not very good. 2. Contrary to both the original poster and Wikipedia, the book is not called Revelations. Depending on the translation, it is the Revelation to John, the Book of Revelation, or the Apocalypse (a greek word meaning “revelation”), but not the Book of Revelations. 3. The term Antichrist is not used in Revelation, but in one of the Epistles of John. 4. I agree with those posters who say that End Times speculation is much less popular than it once was. During the first Gulf War, there was a lot of “Saddam is the Antichrist; this is the beginning of the end” type speculation, drawing not only on Revelation but on Nostradamus and similar frauds. Even Johnny Cash recorded a song on the subject. In contrast, it seems as though 9/11 and its aftermath has produced very little speculation of this type, despite the horrific nature of the attacks and the Middle Eastern origins of the attackers. A Google search for “Bin Laden is the Antichrist” turns up a measly nineteen hits, and several of them are sites denying that Bin Laden is the Antichrist. 5. “Rapture” theory was invented in the nineteenth-century United States and is not the most literal reading of the text. Suggested reading here would be Will Catholics Be Left Behind? by Carl Olson. 6. The Book of Revelation is considered by most scholars to be an allegorical denunciation of ancient Rome, not a prophecy of the end times. 7. The things that the Bible does say about end of the world have not in themselves been falsified; specific claims about what the Biblical references mean have been falsified. Jesus told His followers that no one knew the day or the hour of His return, and attempts to calculate it have generally been discouraged, not encouraged, by mainstream Christian leaders. 8. No, John, it isn’t a “logical turnaround.” I think that war in Iraq was an awful idea, but there is a well-developed and detailed just war theory in Christian tradition. Would it be hypocritical to be against abortion and in favor of World War II?

]]> By: Dubious http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44739 Dubious Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:42:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44739 According to my lights, I agree that MAD-Armageddon had single-digit probability per year or so, whereas Biblical Armageddon has a virtually nil (who knows, maybe I'm mentally ill and ignoring the obvious evidence of God) chance. So yeah, I was smoking crack there. According to my lights, I agree that MAD-Armageddon had single-digit probability per year or so, whereas Biblical Armageddon has a virtually nil (who knows, maybe I’m mentally ill and ignoring the obvious evidence of God) chance. So yeah, I was smoking crack there.

]]> By: razib http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44738 razib Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:23:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44738 why do religious people keep believing when their ideas have been falsified? check out my post <a href="http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002749.html"> No arguing with quasi</a>. the gist is that though many religious assertions might have the <b>form</b> of logical propositions, they really aren't logical propositions amenable to rejection, rather, any input is simply reworked to confirm the model. why do religious people keep believing when their ideas have been falsified? check out my post No arguing with quasi. the gist is that though many religious assertions might have the form of logical propositions, they really aren’t logical propositions amenable to rejection, rather, any input is simply reworked to confirm the model.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44737 abb1 Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:17:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44737 <i>You mean we aren’t going to have a revolution? Crap.</i> If you told me in 1987 that in 4 years the communist party of the soviet union will be banned by the soviet government, I'd probably die laughing. You mean we aren’t going to have a revolution? Crap. If you told me in 1987 that in 4 years the communist party of the soviet union will be banned by the soviet government, I’d probably die laughing.

]]> By: rea http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44736 rea Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:22:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44736 "“arrange for unsaved neighbors to feed the cat” — fantastic!" You laugh, but I was once taken aside by our born-again office manager, who in all seriousness showed me where to find her completed leave-of-absence papers,which she asked me to turn in for her when she was carried off by the rapture. ““arrange for unsaved neighbors to feed the cat” — fantastic!” You laugh, but I was once taken aside by our born-again office manager, who in all seriousness showed me where to find her completed leave-of-absence papers,which she asked me to turn in for her when she was carried off by the rapture.

]]> By: perianwyr http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44735 perianwyr Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:18:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44735 <i>I think this comes out of the rejection in Evangelical Christianity of Calvinist predestination.</i> I think you misread Calvin. Predestination is largely summed up in the five points of Calvinism (the oft mentioned "TULIP": Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable Grace, Perseverance of the saints.) Essentially, we as humans do not have an inner element of God to rely on- we are totally depraved and cannot fall back on some sort of universal grace. Only God can save us, and he does so because he is God and for no other reason. Therefore, the atonement of sin in Christ's death is not universal- it belongs only to those whom God will allow to share in it. This does not mean that the atonement has an internal limit, like some sort of spiritual gas tank- if there are an infinite number of elect, there is enough salvation to cover them all. The postulation that man is totally depraved and that God chooses who will be open to being saved naturally leads to this. It follows, also, that God's choice must therefore be something that you cannot escape. If you can receive grace, you will receive it. There are no half-measures. What this means to evangelical witness is that election is something that humans cannot comprehend, and that the community of God is something formed by those called by grace. It is desired that they reach out, because on this world, who can know what form the acceptance of grace will take? After all, the only real proof can't be seen by humans. I'm also convinced that a lot of fundamentalists are misreading Calvin, too- it always seemed to me that one of the fundamental features of election would have to reasonably be that humans cannot judge its presence. We are, after all, totally depraved and divorced from God as we are. I hope that clears things up a little. I think this comes out of the rejection in Evangelical Christianity of Calvinist predestination. I think you misread Calvin. Predestination is largely summed up in the five points of Calvinism (the oft mentioned “TULIP”: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable Grace, Perseverance of the saints.) Essentially, we as humans do not have an inner element of God to rely on- we are totally depraved and cannot fall back on some sort of universal grace. Only God can save us, and he does so because he is God and for no other reason. Therefore, the atonement of sin in Christ’s death is not universal- it belongs only to those whom God will allow to share in it. This does not mean that the atonement has an internal limit, like some sort of spiritual gas tank- if there are an infinite number of elect, there is enough salvation to cover them all. The postulation that man is totally depraved and that God chooses who will be open to being saved naturally leads to this. It follows, also, that God’s choice must therefore be something that you cannot escape. If you can receive grace, you will receive it. There are no half-measures. What this means to evangelical witness is that election is something that humans cannot comprehend, and that the community of God is something formed by those called by grace. It is desired that they reach out, because on this world, who can know what form the acceptance of grace will take? After all, the only real proof can’t be seen by humans. I’m also convinced that a lot of fundamentalists are misreading Calvin, too- it always seemed to me that one of the fundamental features of election would have to reasonably be that humans cannot judge its presence. We are, after all, totally depraved and divorced from God as we are. I hope that clears things up a little.

]]> By: Scott McLemee http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44734 Scott McLemee Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:24:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44734 You mean we *aren't* going to have a revolution? Crap. Last year, I heard a couple of true believers declare that that capitalism has been on the verge of collapse since the 1860s -- citing, if memory serves, the correspondence of Marx and Engels. So clearly it is just a matter of time. No need to be impatient. You mean we aren’t going to have a revolution? Crap. Last year, I heard a couple of true believers declare that that capitalism has been on the verge of collapse since the 1860s—citing, if memory serves, the correspondence of Marx and Engels. So clearly it is just a matter of time. No need to be impatient.

]]> By: Decnavda http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44733 Decnavda Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:09:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44733 dubious- Mutually-Assured Destruction Armageddon was a very real possibility that those who warned of it hoped could be avoided. Biblical Armageddon violates the laws of physics, and those who warn of it claim it to be a certainty. I suppose "reasonable" vs. "not reasonable" can be described in terms of a dofference in "degree of reasonableness", one being 100%, the other being 0%, but to me it looks like a difference in kind. dubious- Mutually-Assured Destruction Armageddon was a very real possibility that those who warned of it hoped could be avoided. Biblical Armageddon violates the laws of physics, and those who warn of it claim it to be a certainty. I suppose “reasonable” vs. “not reasonable” can be described in terms of a dofference in “degree of reasonableness”, one being 100%, the other being 0%, but to me it looks like a difference in kind.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44732 abb1 Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:05:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44732 “anyone know who the current Antichrist is supposed to be?” Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, explains: <blockquote> ...The antichrist will divide the world and create war without end. He will lie to God, or declare obvious or God given truths to be lies. Also this is interpreted to mean he will declare that things which are evil to be good. He will refer to war as peace, death as a solution for justice, and serving the wealthy as a means of helping the poor. </blockquote> Uh-huh. It goes on: <blockquote> Antichrist criteria Based on the interpretations of the specific passages from the books of Daniel and Revelations, the antichrist is commonly expected to meet certain characteristics. The bible describes a beast-like creature, but over the years these characteristics have been interpreted as being metaphors for other concepts. For example, the beast is supposed to have "ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns upon its horns" (Revelation 13:1-2) which is sometimes interpreted to mean the antichrist will lead 27 or 17 countries. They will follow in his battles that he will declare boldly and without humility are for a purpose which is untrue. Likewise the fact that the beast is described as being "worshipped" is taken as a sign that the antichrist will be a popular figure among those who are deceived by him. Revelation states that "He will appear as an angel of light", which is interepreted to mean that he will profess to be a man of God, or a person who is himself a Christian. The most common interpretations continue to be that the antichrist will be some sort of high-ranking political leader, who will initially do very good, popular things, which will win him many followers. In the end, however he is supposed to get increasingly totalitarian and elicit more and more sacrifices from his followers until eventually his evil ways become known, and the era of "trials and tribulations" begins. </blockquote> We report - you decide. “anyone know who the current Antichrist is supposed to be?” Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, explains:
…The antichrist will divide the world and create war without end. He will lie to God, or declare obvious or God given truths to be lies. Also this is interpreted to mean he will declare that things which are evil to be good. He will refer to war as peace, death as a solution for justice, and serving the wealthy as a means of helping the poor.
Uh-huh. It goes on:
Antichrist criteria Based on the interpretations of the specific passages from the books of Daniel and Revelations, the antichrist is commonly expected to meet certain characteristics. The bible describes a beast-like creature, but over the years these characteristics have been interpreted as being metaphors for other concepts. For example, the beast is supposed to have “ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns upon its horns” (Revelation 13:1-2) which is sometimes interpreted to mean the antichrist will lead 27 or 17 countries. They will follow in his battles that he will declare boldly and without humility are for a purpose which is untrue. Likewise the fact that the beast is described as being “worshipped” is taken as a sign that the antichrist will be a popular figure among those who are deceived by him. Revelation states that “He will appear as an angel of light”, which is interepreted to mean that he will profess to be a man of God, or a person who is himself a Christian. The most common interpretations continue to be that the antichrist will be some sort of high-ranking political leader, who will initially do very good, popular things, which will win him many followers. In the end, however he is supposed to get increasingly totalitarian and elicit more and more sacrifices from his followers until eventually his evil ways become known, and the era of “trials and tribulations” begins.
We report – you decide.

]]> By: Robin http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44731 Robin Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:35:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44731 "anyone know who the current Antichrist is supposed to be?" Too many candidates--perhaps George Soros after he has been made UN Secretary General by a coalition of European and Muslim countries who unite to create a decadent atheist, socialist jihad, chanting "Natural Selection au Akbar". “anyone know who the current Antichrist is supposed to be?” Too many candidates—perhaps George Soros after he has been made UN Secretary General by a coalition of European and Muslim countries who unite to create a decadent atheist, socialist jihad, chanting “Natural Selection au Akbar”.

]]> By: Dubious http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44730 Dubious Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:31:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44730 By the way, there have been persistent predictions of Malthusian (or neo-Malthusian) apocalypse over the last several hundred years. None have yet come true. Obviously, there's something in human psychology that longs for catastrophe (Biblical, 'Day After Tomorrow', 'Deep Impact', various nuclear and plague scenarios). People will contort the evidence to come up with an apocalypse that fits their belief system. I'm not saying that belief in Biblical Armageddon was/is as reasonable as belief in Mutually-Assured Destruction Armageddon, but I think they're more different in degree than in kind. By the way, there have been persistent predictions of Malthusian (or neo-Malthusian) apocalypse over the last several hundred years. None have yet come true. Obviously, there’s something in human psychology that longs for catastrophe (Biblical, ‘Day After Tomorrow’, ‘Deep Impact’, various nuclear and plague scenarios). People will contort the evidence to come up with an apocalypse that fits their belief system. I’m not saying that belief in Biblical Armageddon was/is as reasonable as belief in Mutually-Assured Destruction Armageddon, but I think they’re more different in degree than in kind.

]]> By: Uncle Kvetch http://crookedtimber.org/2004/09/30/revolution-and-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-44729 Uncle Kvetch Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:24:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2273#comment-44729 <i>anyone know who the current Antichrist is supposed to be?</i> Last I checked, John Kerry and Hilary Clinton were neck-and-neck, with Dan Rather coming up fast on the outside. anyone know who the current Antichrist is supposed to be? Last I checked, John Kerry and Hilary Clinton were neck-and-neck, with Dan Rather coming up fast on the outside.

]]>