Comments on: Bin Laden and Palestine

By: Sebastian Holsclaw

Sebastian Holsclaw — Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:51:25 +0000

“The Israeli settlements look like middle class Southern California housing developments, growing out into the dessert—while the Palestinians occupy the role of undocumented Mexican immigrants.” Which is a more revealing analogy than you seem to notice. There are a number of reasons why Southern California housing developments are better than Tijuana’s. More than a few of the most important ones involve having a relatively non-corrupt government, a relatively free market, and not being under the thumb of a fundamentalist religious structure.

By: mona

mona — Mon, 01 Nov 2004 00:23:16 +0000

haven: yup, and his conversion is about as genuine as that of the beneficiary of his video messages… zizka: ah yes, a comparison between bin Laden and Che Guevara is exactly what I had in mind. Not really. (How can you even compare the two?) I think you confused my argument with someone else’s. Yes, I do find it surreal to credit him with sincerity and genuine political convictions and commitment. But in political terms, I’m not arguing with that notion from a rightist or pro-Bush point of view, or from the belief that he is insane, or that we shouldn’t engage the real resentment against US policies that he appeals to. He said Bush lied. That’s a truth, and putting it in bin Laden’s mouth shouldn’t make it any less so – but that’s not really how it works for everybody, especially 3 days before elections. So, to spell it out even more clearly: I’m arguing with that notion of crediting him with sincere political beliefs not just from the point of view of someone repelled by the notion of attributing sincerity to a mass murderer (does that make me right wing?), but from the point of view of someone who doesn’t believe he is really working against US interests, also given the not negligible detail he started his “political” activity working for those interests, via the ever friendly Pakistani services who sincerely don’t have a clue about his whereabouts, and definitely don’t have a clue about the timing of this tape. Yeah, I’m an idiot who sucks up to oh so unlikely conspiracy theories. I hope that doesn’t make me right wing, either.

By: freddie

freddie — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:49:09 +0000

I am perhaps offbase on this but when in the past I have read Juan I have always felt an anti-Israeli bias. I don’t want to press this issue andmerely call him this or that, but I have noted over and over his ranking on Israel, sometimes in a fairly subtle manner and usually never heavy handed, much as Said at one point said that feelings should count for more than reason and rationality and there ought to be one state for Arabs and Jews—sure.

By: jet

jet — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:14:49 +0000

Note to the Afghan historicly challenged. The “good guys” in the Russian/Afghan war were divided into two parties. The Saudi’s claimed responsibility for the foreign fighters and were responsible for their funding. The US claimed responsibility for the local and Pakistan elements and were responsible for their funding. Saudi insisted on a strict seperation because after all the US was still the devil. Osama probably met CIA operatives and maybe the CIA was the go between for the two distinct groups. But it doesn’t appear very probable that Osama went to CIA summer camps in how to kill commies or cashed checks drawn on CIA-CASH-FOR-Mujahadeen. Wishing has never made things so, and Osama certainly wasn never the CIA’s boy. Now please return to your debate over how Osama spent his youth, what were his hobbies and interests, how he spent his free time, and important milestones in his life, like when he decided his family’s extreme wealth in a corrupt government and his extravagent lifestyle were at the cost of millions in poverty and that the US should be made to pay for this unware system.

By: Zizka

Zizka — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:35:06 +0000

Confirming evidence for mona’s thesis can be found in the career of Che Guevara, the so-called “communist” whose youth tells us that he was actually just a fun-loving hippie. There’s a joke about the mother who gave her son two shirts for his birthday. When he wore on of them the next day, she asked why he didn’t like the other one. In the same way, it’s clear that Osama doesn’t care much about Israel/Palestine, since he talks about other things more often. Apparently you can start an argument these days by saying that Osama actually has intelligible motives, and isn’t just a compulsive, insensate killer who only wants to make free people suffer and die.

By: abb1

abb1 — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:30:18 +0000

As Beldar said earlier and I’ve posted today, Osama’s sudden Israel focus is part of a negotiation strategy for Kerry if he wins the election on Tuesday. Yeah, right. Question for wingnuts: if your brilliant hypothesis is correct, why would he release that tape now and not a few days later – when he is certain that Kerry has, indeed, been elected? I guess Osama’s pollsters already know the Tuesday’s results, huh. Or maybe he has a time-machine in that cave and reading next week’s newspapers? Sheesh.

By: nobody's home

nobody's home — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:48:59 +0000

The first interview I ever remember reading with OBL, he was very fervant and impassioned over Israel’s shelling of the UN refugee camp at Qana inside Lebanon’s borders. As I remember, the UN’s report had later said that the shelling was no mistake (as Israel had claimed it was) but an intentional targeting, and OBL was labelling it Israeli terrorism. I believe it can be found in the Atlantic Monthly archives, 1996 or 1997.

By: L

Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:23:10 +0000

“doesn’t matter what makes bin Laden tick”. that’s a good point, a lot definitely centers on the I/P conflict. But not sure I understand the “wasn’t really interested in politics in his youth” complaint. Please don’t forget that where bin Laden received his best financing and training was from the CIA, when he and many others were paid to “give Russia their own Vietnam”, as Zbigniew Brzenski (?sp) put it, in trying to kick them out of Afghanistan. Not long after, yes, they went on to other things, but if not for that, bin Laden would still be just a poor little angry rich kid in Saudi.

By: Haven

Haven — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:04:33 +0000

mona, Bin Laden was “born-again”

By: Jim Harrison

Jim Harrison — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:20:41 +0000

Whether Palestine is subjectively important to Bin Laden is irrelevant because Palestine is enormously important to everybody involved in Middle Eastern politics. No Muslim politician—and Bin Laden is a politician as well as a terrorist—can possibly ignore Israel and what it means for the reigion, particularly since Israel is a military powerhouse disposing of an estimated 200 nuclear weapons and the means of delivering them anywhere from Algeria to India.

By: mona

mona — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:29:20 +0000

Jack, sorry, maybe my remark was more silly than odd, it must be the Marxist in me, maybe I should cut more slack to the well-fed sons of the privileged Saudi elites, the richest people in the world, so hated and envied, yeah, I’m probably being unfair. Maybe I just interpret “commitment” in a different way. What can bin Laden know about living as a Palestinian? In Afghanistan he was a well-paid recruit of the Pakistani services and the CIA, since they worked together. Channelling funds to those who were fighting the Russians on behalf of the US. His family happens to have entertained very close business relations with the Bushes and his cronies in the oil and military industry. By pure accident, no doubt. No, I don’t think he’s insane, and yes, he definitely is committed to some cause, I just don’t think it’s got anything to do with improving things for the Palestinians or anyone else but those who are actually benefiting from having him as the global bogeyman. Where is he? who’s helping him stay hidden and well-fed and healthy? who’s shipping his tapes all the way to Qatar? that’s what I want the answers to, not if he really cares about a Palestinian cause which is certainly gaining nothing from his speeches or actions. He not only claimed responsibility for killing thousands of innocents, he gave the US the pretext for two wars already, legitimised all kinds of Israeli operations in Gaza and sanctified Russian massacres in Chechenya because now it’s all part of the global war on terror. That’s some impressive commitment.

By: Rick Brady

Rick Brady — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:33:43 +0000

As Beldar said earlier and I’ve posted today, Osama’s sudden Israel focus is part of a negotiation strategy for Kerry if he wins the election on Tuesday. See Osama Counters

By: seth edenbaum

seth edenbaum — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:30:37 +0000

From the LA Times …In fact, what has caught the attention of the U.S. intelligence community is the strangely conciliatory nature of bin Laden’s new message, according to some government officials and outside experts. These experts say bin Laden appears to be intensifying his campaign to “re-brand” himself in the minds of Muslims worldwide, and become known more as a political voice than a global terrorist. “In some ways the tone of the message is as intriguing, and alarming, as the timing,” said a U.S. official familiar with the tape, and the U.S. intelligence community’s analysis of it. “The absence of an explicit threat does represent a different point of emphasis for this guy. “Is he still an enemy? Absolutely. Is he still focused on terrorism? Yes,” continued the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity given the sensitivity of the tape. “But the tone of this is something we’re looking at very closely to see where this guy is placing his emphasis.” The U.S. official said “a political spinoff (of al-Qaida) is one of the greatest fears” of U.S. counter-terrorism authorities, in which bin Laden and the terror network follow the path of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hezbollah and members of the Irish Republican Army. Over the years, those groups evolved from having an emphasis on committing terrorism into broader organizations with influential, widely accepted political wings. …”He has injected a political element into his work, and has tried to appeal almost on an intellectual level,” said Cressey, now a counter-terrorism consultant. “He’s saying, ‘I’m here and you better factor me into your calculations, political and otherwise.’ ” “If people are concerned that he is evolving into more of a political figure, to a certain extent he already has,” Cressey said of bin Laden. U.S. authorities, he added, “should be concerned if (bin Laden’s) message resonates with a broader portion of the Muslim world than his narrower messages of the past, in that he was declaring war. And only time will tell if that’s the case.” Lee Strickland, who worked for the CIA for 30 years until his retirement a month ago, said bin Laden already has made inroads, in some respects. “He and his organization have matured and become more subtle and more effective in delivering their message and their policy,” Strickland said. In his most recent tape, Strickland said, bin Laden “shows a great sophistication in thinking, in planning and in communication. It makes him much more dangerous.” I’m a little amused that they are calling him more dangerous by being less violent, but one shouldn’t expect otherwise from the CIA.

By: Jack

Jack — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 02:55:15 +0000

The Mona/Giles point about Bin Laden’s youth is odd. Cole is talking about events that came after he came back from fighting in Afghanistan. I’d say that demonstrates political commitment. The point is that he was talking about the Israel Palestine conflict 22 years ago. It is not just a bolt on tool. Even if it were the real question is will it gain traction? As dsquared says the time is ripe. We’re so vain we think his inflammatory rhetoric is about us but he wants power in the Islamic world most.

By: Generally Snell

Generally Snell — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:21:04 +0000

Abb1, Read upthread. I was responding somecallmetim’s question as to whether UBL’s stand on Israel mattered or not. Simple answer: strategically, sure it does, he’s a force in the region. His financial and strategic committment to fighting Israel is going to determine how he spends his time, money, men and influence. But no, Israel isn’t number one on his list, and it shouldn’t be. He’s a Saudi, after all, and I don’t think Arab or Muslim solidarity would be enough to turn his attention from the secular Moloch called the Saud family.