Comments on: The ugly game

By: Antoni Jaume

Antoni Jaume — Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:55:29 +0000

“I know that I’m going to be sorry I asked this,” No needs to feel sorry. ” but: Do you have any real evidence to back the idea that the sort of casual domestic racism described is limited to Aznar supporters?” If you reread what I wrote, I think you will find that I do not make any claim that racism in Spain in limited to Aznaristas, far from it unfortunately, only that the hosts of these UK students were just the main class of voters of Aznar, and that was a reason in itself to expect racist behaviour. ” And where does your figure of 14% come from?” it is a rule of thumb I’ve extracted from my readings in AI some 20 years ago, together with the observation that parties that are racists/nationalists (FN in France, Vlaams Blok in Belgium, HB in Euskadi, ERC in Catalonia, etc.) have a ceiling in most case between 12-15 % of voters. That does not mean that all their voters are “racists”, but their radicality in their political issues make them a good proxy IMO. DSW

By: Jeff

Jeff — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:43:39 +0000

Having grown up in the American South, the presumed epicenter of all things backward and racist, I am always amazed when I travel to Europe (and to New York and other large northeastern cities) by the casual bigotry and racism of friends and people I meet. Sweeping assumptions based on race and national origin (and the assumption that any white male from the South is by definition a white-hooded moron) seem to be shockingly widespread. As a guilty Southerner it always makes me wonder to what extent the South’s (and more broadly, the United States’) appalling racial history lets the rest of the country (or the Western world) off the hook for their own backward views. “At least we aren’t South Carolina…”

By: Rob

Rob — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:51:57 +0000

Dsquared, I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at. The relatively large (by European standards) and reasonably well integrated population of black and asian people in large British cities, over time, makes it difficult to sustain the acceptability of overtly racist behaviour. I think my account has the causality running the other way from yours: it’s because (in part) of the existence of the population that the measures to deal with it were taken. I’m sorry if this wasn’t clear the first time round. Also, Slex’s point does bear consideration: clearly there is something wrong with insulting people on the basis of the colour of their skin, but doing so is not necessarily motivated by the overtly racist beliefs. That these epithets are acceptable as terms of abuse is reprehensible, but it does not necessarily mean that the people using them are (overtly) prejudiced (not that this was the case with the monkey chanting in the Spain-England game: they’re just racist).

By: nic

nic — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:53:03 +0000

The reason why British fans are somewhat better behaved these days has been, quite simply an aggressive and draconianly enforced policy of kicking people out of grounds and cancelling their season tickets. Countries which haven’t made the effort, still have the racist fans. Yes, exactly. Even in Italy where the ultras far-right groups are still very active, racism in the stadium has diminished (more than the general violence and insults and throwing stuff at players). A few years ago the Verona Hellas ultras became infamous for the racist chants against black players, there was a lot of outrage in the press and from politicians, the Italian federation threatened to ban all supporters from the stadium, and the rest of the team fans started booing the chanters, so that came to an end. The really shocking thing here is the behaviour of the coach and the comments by the Spanish federation. Blaming the English press!

By: Randy Paul

Randy Paul — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:25:29 +0000

It’s not limited to Europe. Try going to an Argentine bar for a game between Argentina and Brazil and see how many times you hear the Brazilian players referred to as monkeys.

By: Peter

Peter — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:02:13 +0000

Antoni Jaume: I know that I’m going to be sorry I asked this, but: Do you have any real evidence to back the idea that the sort of casual domestic racism described is limited to Aznar supporters? And where does your figure of 14% come from?

By: Chris Stiles

Chris Stiles — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:01:21 +0000

In my personal opinion, Britain has come on a whole lot further than any of the other european nations in tackling racism, both at a visible and invisible level. To a large degree this is a result of both the number of people from ethnic minorities and the number of ethnic minorities themselves. The fact that there is a great range ethnicities has meant that the country has had to confront what it means to British collectively rather than each group having to do it separately. Yes, there is bad as well as good, and London and the South East is different from places like mid-Wales, but in general as an ethnic Britain I feel welcome as a citizen of this country and am always heartened by the number of the majority community who will protest unfairness in racial matters. Sadly, the same is not quite the case in Europe – especially the countries of the South and France and Germany, this is one reason I personally have for being skeptical of the European project. regards

By: George

George — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:36:29 +0000

This must have some bearing on the “would England be a red state or a blue state” question.

By: Slex

Slex — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:30:15 +0000

I don’t think that the problem with racism in football is this big. Not that it doesn’t exist, but if you keep a close eye on football fans you will see that this type of behaviour is not targeted only at black players.I mean that insults and name-calling are the norm, rather than the exception in football, and if the players are black, fans will try to insult them on racist grounds, if not, then they will find something else to shout at them. However racist insults are selectively spotted because of their political incorectness, while the others are usually personal insults and you can’t make a political issue out of it. In a game between CSKA and Levski two years ago a defender of Levski was punished after the game for racist insults against the South African striker of CSKA, and he tried to defend himslef by saying that he has Nigerian teammates and that they have never been treated in a racist way. I have seen fans shouting racist insults at black players of the opposition and only few minutes later applauding black players from their team in games on the club level. Not exactly a consistent position if they are racists. Thus said, I don’t want to imply that there is no racism in football and among the fans. There are a lot of right wing groups who find their place in the so called “ultras”. Nor do I want to imply that violence in football can’t reach dangerous levels, even if it is not based on issues of race. All I want to say is, that not all of those who shout insults at black players are really racists, it may be all part of a psycho war – they are being nasty, yes, but not necessarily racist.

By: kall

kall — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:01:33 +0000

Mr. Turnipseed, have you read Foer’s book? If I read it correctly, he points out (in some detail) the prevalence of racist hostility on the part of european football fans toward dark-skinned players. His thesis being that the global game of soccer is comparable to global trade in the way that, when it brings different populations in contact, it often provokes the worst in them—at least, not always the best.

By: Ken Houghton

Ken Houghton — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:25:39 +0000

oops. so much for that 501 error meaning nothing happened…sorry for the double-down

By: Ken Houghton

Ken Houghton — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:23:21 +0000

dsquared – You mean still have the racist fans =in the stadium=. I can assure you that the FIFA-qualifying US-Jamaica match last night was not marred by racist commentary and general fooforahs (though there was a period in the second half when it appeared to be getting out of control, until the referee handed out two Yellow Cards which both got the game going again and drew the wrath of the announcers). Of course, it was not marred by being all that interesting, either, and was played in Columbus, OH, where most people were getting ready for that other football, coming this weekend, which will sell out 105K, as opposed to the “crowd” so large ESPN2 didn’t bother showing the seating.

By: Ken Houghton

Ken Houghton — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:22:53 +0000

By: Another Damned Medievalist

Another Damned Medievalist — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:17:31 +0000

Funny thing—I know there’s racism in football. My husband has been to games where ape noises were made at black players (in the late 70s and early 80s). It still shocks me. Maybe part of it is that, as a USAmerican, I’m just used to seeing lots of black players on a team. When I watch football, the closest I come to race is, “why are there no Asian players? I know there are Asian fans.” Otherwise, I tend to think of things like, “God I love Henry. He’s so damn cool. Toure’s solid. Oh, no, not Cygan. Why the hell can’t Wenger buy some English players?” But that’s me. Hatin’ Chelsea and MU ‘cause they deserve it AND have lots of good home-grown talent. Although WHY Wenger didn’t go for Butt or Woodgate, I’ll never know. Although, if there’s a special name for hatred of Cristiano Ronaldo, I’m probably guilty of it.

By: dsquared

dsquared — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:58:53 +0000

Particularly in the large cities where most large British football teams are based, there is a large and established ex-colonial population, which might make it harder to sustain racist beliefs Attractive theory, but the black and indian population of big British cities was there in the 1970s and 80s, during which period there was a huge racism problem. The reason why British fans are somewhat better behaved these days has been, quite simply an aggressive and draconianly enforced policy of kicking people out of grounds and cancelling their season tickets. Countries which haven’t made the effort, still have the racist fans.