Comments on: Academic Job Markets and Status Hierarchies http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 21 Mar 2010 23:17:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Anthony http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53257 Anthony Thu, 09 Dec 2004 00:28:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53257 Walt Pohl - as much as it pains me, as a Berkeley grad, to say this, it's <b>Stanford</b>, not CalTech, which is the research driver of Silicon Valley. However, it's not just Stanford's prowess at research in the sciences, it's also a policy which allows professors and grad students to profit from their research in ways which most universities don't allow. If one does research into a highly marketable idea at Stanford, and finds the right backers, one can become far richer than if that same research was done at Berkeley.</b> Walt Pohl – as much as it pains me, as a Berkeley grad, to say this, it’s Stanford, not CalTech, which is the research driver of Silicon Valley. However, it’s not just Stanford’s prowess at research in the sciences, it’s also a policy which allows professors and grad students to profit from their research in ways which most universities don’t allow. If one does research into a highly marketable idea at Stanford, and finds the right backers, one can become far richer than if that same research was done at Berkeley.

]]> By: Anthony http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53256 Anthony Thu, 09 Dec 2004 00:25:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53256 Walt Pohl - as much as it pains me, as a Berkeley grad, to say this, it's <b>Stanford</b>, not CalTech, which is the research driver of Silicon Valley. However, it's not just Stanford's prowess at research in the sciences, it's also a policy which allows professors and grad students to profit from their research in ways which most universities don't allow. If one does research into a highly marketable idea at Stanford, and finds the right backers, one can become far richer than if that same research was done at Berkeley.</b> Walt Pohl – as much as it pains me, as a Berkeley grad, to say this, it’s Stanford, not CalTech, which is the research driver of Silicon Valley. However, it’s not just Stanford’s prowess at research in the sciences, it’s also a policy which allows professors and grad students to profit from their research in ways which most universities don’t allow. If one does research into a highly marketable idea at Stanford, and finds the right backers, one can become far richer than if that same research was done at Berkeley.

]]> By: Iconic Midwesterner http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53255 Iconic Midwesterner Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:39:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53255 All of these arguments, although interesting, are pointless in the end. The situation of the top academic departments is analagous, in many ways, to 19th century urban political machines. Cronyism isn't an exceptional occurance, it is the way things are done. But this shouldn't surprise anyone. Academic departments themselves are inherently illiberal and almost aristorcatic in the way they function. You would need something like a new progressive era to impose something like "civil service" reform on academia. But there is no avenue in for reformist ideas, no way to bring effective pressure to bear on the academic elites from outside their enclaves, so its never gonna happen. All of these arguments, although interesting, are pointless in the end. The situation of the top academic departments is analagous, in many ways, to 19th century urban political machines. Cronyism isn’t an exceptional occurance, it is the way things are done. But this shouldn’t surprise anyone. Academic departments themselves are inherently illiberal and almost aristorcatic in the way they function. You would need something like a new progressive era to impose something like “civil service” reform on academia. But there is no avenue in for reformist ideas, no way to bring effective pressure to bear on the academic elites from outside their enclaves, so its never gonna happen.

]]> By: Walt Pohl http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53254 Walt Pohl Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:42:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53254 Scientists started leaving Germany in the 1930s, and the center of gravity of science began to shift from Germany to the United States. As for Silicon Valley, it's not just the academic research itself, but the culture it creates. M. Gordan: I'm sure it's less true in fields like math and physics than it is in the humanities, but is it not true at all? I was curious if the paper included any sciences, but the link was broken. Anyway, I was just addressing Cranky's point about teaching. Scientists started leaving Germany in the 1930s, and the center of gravity of science began to shift from Germany to the United States. As for Silicon Valley, it’s not just the academic research itself, but the culture it creates. M. Gordan: I’m sure it’s less true in fields like math and physics than it is in the humanities, but is it not true at all? I was curious if the paper included any sciences, but the link was broken. Anyway, I was just addressing Cranky’s point about teaching.

]]> By: burritoboy http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53253 burritoboy Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:06:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53253 As Kieran undoubtedly knows, Rakesh Khurana uses the same idea to explain CEO hiring. As Kieran undoubtedly knows, Rakesh Khurana uses the same idea to explain CEO hiring.

]]> By: M. Gordon http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53252 M. Gordon Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:43:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53252 <i>Cranky: Maybe this isn’t true of departments by philosophy, but academic research in general is an incredibly important driver of American economic growth.</i> <p> Yes, but the problem that's being moaned about sounds like it is endemic to philosophy, or perhaps the social sciences. In a more empirical field (e.g., physics), it's all about the publications. Nobody cares if you went to Hoofydoo Ivy League University and published nothing but crap in RSI. Similarly, if you went to Small State U, and have three publications in PRL, people will notice. And, forgive me for suggesting this, but I think that the empirical fields are probably the ones driving economic growth.<p> I won't argue with the assertion that philosophy produces a social good whether or not it drives economic growth, but that argument was posed by a different poster.</p></p> Cranky: Maybe this isn’t true of departments by philosophy, but academic research in general is an incredibly important driver of American economic growth.

Yes, but the problem that’s being moaned about sounds like it is endemic to philosophy, or perhaps the social sciences. In a more empirical field (e.g., physics), it’s all about the publications. Nobody cares if you went to Hoofydoo Ivy League University and published nothing but crap in RSI. Similarly, if you went to Small State U, and have three publications in PRL, people will notice. And, forgive me for suggesting this, but I think that the empirical fields are probably the ones driving economic growth.

I won’t argue with the assertion that philosophy produces a social good whether or not it drives economic growth, but that argument was posed by a different poster.

]]> By: Gabriel Rossman http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53251 Gabriel Rossman Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:48:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53251 Stoll, I'd imagine that once she actually publishes her research, admission should be no problem since graduate admissions committees weigh publications very heavily. Nonetheless the example is pretty compelling. Stoll, I’d imagine that once she actually publishes her research, admission should be no problem since graduate admissions committees weigh publications very heavily. Nonetheless the example is pretty compelling.

]]> By: Giles http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53250 Giles Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:38:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53250 Interesting example Walt - I'd say that German Universties declined because of the War. Silicon valley was generated by people who dropped out academia - not people in academia. An alternative hypothesis (Riddell) is that the US education premium is just a demographic phenomonon - caused by an experinece deficit. Interesting example Walt – I’d say that German Universties declined because of the War. Silicon valley was generated by people who dropped out academia – not people in academia. An alternative hypothesis (Riddell) is that the US education premium is just a demographic phenomonon – caused by an experinece deficit.

]]> By: Stoll http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53249 Stoll Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:35:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53249 Judging from my wife's experience the problem extends to the graduate school admissions level also. She graduated magna cum laude from the University of Memphis. She finished her M.A. there having completed a study of approximately 1,250 churches within Shelby County (metropolitan Memphis). The study was described by faculty as being the equivalent of Ph.D. work, and she and a faculty member are considering publishing results. Her thesis won a university contest as the best M.A. thesis. She has presented papers at conferences, and has taught entry level and upper greaduate level courses at the U. of M. But, she cannot get accepted into the Ph.D. programs she has applied to (U. of M. does not have one). Our conclusion is that U. of M. is so low on the academic scale that she has been adversely affected. Though admittedly biased, I still cannot understand how this has happened. Judging from my wife’s experience the problem extends to the graduate school admissions level also. She graduated magna cum laude from the University of Memphis. She finished her M.A. there having completed a study of approximately 1,250 churches within Shelby County (metropolitan Memphis). The study was described by faculty as being the equivalent of Ph.D. work, and she and a faculty member are considering publishing results. Her thesis won a university contest as the best M.A. thesis. She has presented papers at conferences, and has taught entry level and upper greaduate level courses at the U. of M. But, she cannot get accepted into the Ph.D. programs she has applied to (U. of M. does not have one). Our conclusion is that U. of M. is so low on the academic scale that she has been adversely affected. Though admittedly biased, I still cannot understand how this has happened.

]]> By: Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53248 Jim Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:20:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53248 Thanks for the nice discussion of this issue. While I generally support the academic prestige argument, I think that many of the empirical studies have strongly over-stated the effect. The problem is a statistical one related to available data. We only have data for these exchange structures based on people who actually get jobs, those who apply and do not get jobs are lost to the system. This means that when we see lots of hires from department x to department y, we can't know if means that any given person from x is more likely to be hired, or if x just simply puts out a lot of students. In Sociology (Burris paper) the top departments are also very large. This is compounded (in the social sciences anyway, I'm just not familiar with the others) with pretty poor measures of quality production. It seems the more interesting question is how strong the association should be. If the market were working perfectly, then would you find a stable hierarchical prestige ranking? I think the answer is "yes", based on two re-enforcing selection features: good, dedicated students select into the best departments to work with high-quality faculty. So this skews the distribution of quality on the incoming side. On the output side, new applicants want to work at the highest prestige departments and the highest prestige departments want the best students. So if we *could* measure productivity/quality well, I suspect the results would generate a very stable hierarchy. (Of course, this is true in other fields too. Think of the ranking of large law, accounting or consulting firms.) Thanks for the nice discussion of this issue. While I generally support the academic prestige argument, I think that many of the empirical studies have strongly over-stated the effect. The problem is a statistical one related to available data. We only have data for these exchange structures based on people who actually get jobs, those who apply and do not get jobs are lost to the system. This means that when we see lots of hires from department x to department y, we can’t know if means that any given person from x is more likely to be hired, or if x just simply puts out a lot of students. In Sociology (Burris paper) the top departments are also very large. This is compounded (in the social sciences anyway, I’m just not familiar with the others) with pretty poor measures of quality production. It seems the more interesting question is how strong the association should be. If the market were working perfectly, then would you find a stable hierarchical prestige ranking? I think the answer is “yes”, based on two re-enforcing selection features: good, dedicated students select into the best departments to work with high-quality faculty. So this skews the distribution of quality on the incoming side. On the output side, new applicants want to work at the highest prestige departments and the highest prestige departments want the best students. So if we could measure productivity/quality well, I suspect the results would generate a very stable hierarchy. (Of course, this is true in other fields too. Think of the ranking of large law, accounting or consulting firms.)

]]> By: Geoff Pynn http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53247 Geoff Pynn Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:34:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53247 In response to Cranky, Keith, and Walt: high-quality academic research in any field at all (even philosophy! even--gasp!--comparative literature!) is a social good, and it would be a good even if it made no difference whatsoever to the economic growth of the society that sponsored it. It would be a good even if it <i>dampened</i> the economic growth of the society that sponsored it. It's surprising to me that among CT readers there would be any question about this. In response to Cranky, Keith, and Walt: high-quality academic research in any field at all (even philosophy! even—gasp!—comparative literature!) is a social good, and it would be a good even if it made no difference whatsoever to the economic growth of the society that sponsored it. It would be a good even if it dampened the economic growth of the society that sponsored it. It’s surprising to me that among CT readers there would be any question about this.

]]> By: david http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53246 david Mon, 06 Dec 2004 05:03:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53246 Ooops Ooops

]]> By: david http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53245 david Mon, 06 Dec 2004 05:02:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53245 Publication record, of course, is a shit determination of research worth. Two bad books from good presses is still two bad books, and they'll do you well, if you come from the right school, blah blah blah. I write this instead of writing my book, but it's always best to address the argument and not the person making it. Publication record, of course, is a shit determination of research worth. Two bad books from good presses is still two bad books, and they’ll do you well, if you come from the right school, blah blah blah. I write this instead of writing my book, but it’s always best to address the argument and not the person making it.

]]> By: david http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53244 david Mon, 06 Dec 2004 05:00:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53244 Publication record, of course, is a shit determination of research worth. Two bad books from good presses is still two bad books, and they'll do you well, if you come from the right school, blah blah blah. I write this instead of writing my book, but it's always best to address the argument and not the person making it. Publication record, of course, is a shit determination of research worth. Two bad books from good presses is still two bad books, and they’ll do you well, if you come from the right school, blah blah blah. I write this instead of writing my book, but it’s always best to address the argument and not the person making it.

]]> By: Walt Pohl http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/05/academic-job-markets-and-status-hierarchies/comment-page-1/#comment-53243 Walt Pohl Mon, 06 Dec 2004 03:54:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2611#comment-53243 I only have anecdotal evidence, but Germany's status as a world power only outlasted its loss of leadership in science by a decade. The United States is the world's technological leader, and is also the leader scientific research. The connection between Caltech and the rise of Silicon Valley has been frequently remarked. I only have anecdotal evidence, but Germany’s status as a world power only outlasted its loss of leadership in science by a decade. The United States is the world’s technological leader, and is also the leader scientific research. The connection between Caltech and the rise of Silicon Valley has been frequently remarked.

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