Comments on: Identity Politics for All http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:47:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: YADO http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54639 YADO Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:52:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54639 I am a sucker: I read the entirety of the comments. This is such a nonissue, it devolved rather quickly into also being unamusing. If you're that distressed, Deb, go do something about it and start a group blog where you have yourself a 50/50 mix of posters. This isn't some affirmative action crisis. It's just a blog. A very good one, and funny, but in the end, it's really just another blog with no obligation to anything at all beyond someone paying the hosting fees for it. I am a sucker: I read the entirety of the comments. This is such a nonissue, it devolved rather quickly into also being unamusing. If you’re that distressed, Deb, go do something about it and start a group blog where you have yourself a 50/50 mix of posters. This isn’t some affirmative action crisis. It’s just a blog. A very good one, and funny, but in the end, it’s really just another blog with no obligation to anything at all beyond someone paying the hosting fees for it.

]]> By: Kevin Hayden http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54638 Kevin Hayden Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:51:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54638 Economics-ish, sociology-ish, philosophy-ish? What, no fine-art-ish folks here to make it a perfectly useless fraternity? And who changes the lightbulbs, the illegal nanny? This thread actually caused me to wonder about the dire shortage of women economists. And then I recalled that Echidne of the Snakes has that qualification, though she has the class not to flaunt her numbers in decent society. Btw, what percentage of your comments come from women, counting all the repetitions? Or are they counted as 2/3rds of a person per comment? I think I'll refrain from touching the question asked of Mill, suggesting he had "the flavor of jsm". My standards of humor are too low to rise to puns. And Deb, I advise you to avoid the Kool-Aid. Every time I've had some, it leaves me feeling rather androgynous, akin to the feeling that befalls me during a thorough flogging of an obscure economics theory. Finally, should the club decide to expand a bit and you take a vote to invite any elderly guys with Mick/Austrian-Jew/Brit/Dutch ancestry, a black second cousin, who's endured the shame of white male poverty, has moments when he's been convinced dementia has gotten the upper hand, has been known to fake an orgasm to forestall the relentless, and is in touch with his feminine snide, drop me a line. If I can recall who you are, and the pay is equal, I'd definitely consider joining, if it's okay that I only come here for the pictures of the Page Three Bloggers. Economics-ish, sociology-ish, philosophy-ish? What, no fine-art-ish folks here to make it a perfectly useless fraternity? And who changes the lightbulbs, the illegal nanny? This thread actually caused me to wonder about the dire shortage of women economists. And then I recalled that Echidne of the Snakes has that qualification, though she has the class not to flaunt her numbers in decent society. Btw, what percentage of your comments come from women, counting all the repetitions? Or are they counted as 2/3rds of a person per comment? I think I’ll refrain from touching the question asked of Mill, suggesting he had “the flavor of jsm”. My standards of humor are too low to rise to puns. And Deb, I advise you to avoid the Kool-Aid. Every time I’ve had some, it leaves me feeling rather androgynous, akin to the feeling that befalls me during a thorough flogging of an obscure economics theory. Finally, should the club decide to expand a bit and you take a vote to invite any elderly guys with Mick/Austrian-Jew/Brit/Dutch ancestry, a black second cousin, who’s endured the shame of white male poverty, has moments when he’s been convinced dementia has gotten the upper hand, has been known to fake an orgasm to forestall the relentless, and is in touch with his feminine snide, drop me a line. If I can recall who you are, and the pay is equal, I’d definitely consider joining, if it’s okay that I only come here for the pictures of the Page Three Bloggers.

]]> By: dave heasman http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54637 dave heasman Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:10:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54637 Deb F "my estimate could either be described as off by 8.667% (11.667-3) OR 367%. Both are kosher." "Interestingly", they're not. Yours is deceitful. Say you estimate 3 oranges and the true number is 11. Then you're off by 8 oranges or 367%. In your case the thing you're estimating but off is "values expressed by percentages". You appear to be an economist and when they act innumerate it's invariably to confuse in their favour, so let's try this two ways. Firstly a comparison value expressed as a percentage should have zero dimensions. i.e 11 oranges divided by 3 oranges = 367%. The "oranges" top & bottom of the expression cancel out. Likewise 11%/3% = 367%. The "percentages" at the top and bottom of the expression, being the units both values are expressed in, cancel out. In the result of your subtraction there is no information, apart from the banal one that you got the numbers wrong and that favoured your position. The "8.667%" difference is equivalent to (11.667 - 3)% and also to (1 000 000 - 999 991.33)%. No difference, eh? The other way of looking at it, and another way you attempt to mislead us, is that in the case of your quoting the difference as 8.667% is that the "%" here is the name of the units, rather than a percentage difference. There is a whole world out there trying to mislead people by blurring the distinction between the name of the thing and the thing itself, and here you're at one with the "People's" "Democratic" "Republic" of Korea. You can be proud. Deb F “my estimate could either be described as off by 8.667% (11.667-3) OR 367%. Both are kosher.” “Interestingly”, they’re not. Yours is deceitful. Say you estimate 3 oranges and the true number is 11. Then you’re off by 8 oranges or 367%. In your case the thing you’re estimating but off is “values expressed by percentages”. You appear to be an economist and when they act innumerate it’s invariably to confuse in their favour, so let’s try this two ways. Firstly a comparison value expressed as a percentage should have zero dimensions. i.e 11 oranges divided by 3 oranges = 367%. The “oranges” top & bottom of the expression cancel out. Likewise 11%/3% = 367%. The “percentages” at the top and bottom of the expression, being the units both values are expressed in, cancel out. In the result of your subtraction there is no information, apart from the banal one that you got the numbers wrong and that favoured your position. The “8.667%” difference is equivalent to (11.667 – 3)% and also to (1 000 000 – 999 991.33)%. No difference, eh? The other way of looking at it, and another way you attempt to mislead us, is that in the case of your quoting the difference as 8.667% is that the “%” here is the name of the units, rather than a percentage difference. There is a whole world out there trying to mislead people by blurring the distinction between the name of the thing and the thing itself, and here you’re at one with the “People’s” “Democratic” “Republic” of Korea. You can be proud.

]]> By: Mattt Weiner http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54636 Mattt Weiner Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:28:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54636 For the record--not that anyone cares!--what I was thinking of was <a href="http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/002052.html">this</a>: <blockquote>the Invisible Adjunct once remarked that [Chun] took trolling to a higher level, and I reckon that’s about right.</blockquote> I think Chun had a sort of playful malice that made his posts entertaining and also qualified him as a troll. In a good way! For the record—not that anyone cares!—what I was thinking of was this:
the Invisible Adjunct once remarked that [Chun] took trolling to a higher level, and I reckon that’s about right.
I think Chun had a sort of playful malice that made his posts entertaining and also qualified him as a troll. In a good way!

]]> By: Jon H http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54635 Jon H Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:19:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54635 Henry writes: "If this is right, it would seem to suggest that there’s a general problem out there. " It may be a fact, but why do you assume it's a <b>problem</b>? Maybe the problem is that men's priorities are out of whack and they waste their lives posting impotent screeds to blogs instead of accomplishing something meaningful, while women don't generally go for useless online pissing contests. Maybe blogging is the disorder, not lack of interest in blogging. It's not like anyone's being excluded from blogging due to their gender. That would be a problem. But Blogger doesn't require a blood test before you can set up an account. There are no barriers to blogging. Henry writes: “If this is right, it would seem to suggest that there’s a general problem out there. ” It may be a fact, but why do you assume it’s a problem? Maybe the problem is that men’s priorities are out of whack and they waste their lives posting impotent screeds to blogs instead of accomplishing something meaningful, while women don’t generally go for useless online pissing contests. Maybe blogging is the disorder, not lack of interest in blogging. It’s not like anyone’s being excluded from blogging due to their gender. That would be a problem. But Blogger doesn’t require a blood test before you can set up an account. There are no barriers to blogging.

]]> By: Keith M Ellis http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54634 Keith M Ellis Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:02:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54634 <i>Perhaps you are not aware of this, but miscounting is not usually considered a heuristic in applied math.</i> Hehe. Deb singlehandedly does more damage to the credibility of her cause (both regarding feminism and against economics) than her worst enemy. Astonishing. And very, very, sad. Perhaps you are not aware of this, but miscounting is not usually considered a heuristic in applied math. Hehe. Deb singlehandedly does more damage to the credibility of her cause (both regarding feminism and against economics) than her worst enemy. Astonishing. And very, very, sad.

]]> By: Another Damned Medievalist http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54633 Another Damned Medievalist Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:21:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54633 Hmmmm ... dsquared, if I were a CT writer, I don't think it would raise the tone, since I'd happily spend more time sitting around watching Sky Sports and drinking Stella. After all, I'm doing quite well in the CT fantasy football (quite well for me, that is). And I am a reasonably attractive (but not single ... 10th anniversary on Monday!) female person. But there are many of us academic female bloggers. Maybe it's just that lots of us are pseudonymous for one reason or another. For me, it's because I kind of like it, and because I'm on the job market. People can figure out who I am if they try hard enough, but I like the veil of the nom de plume. Hmmmm … dsquared, if I were a CT writer, I don’t think it would raise the tone, since I’d happily spend more time sitting around watching Sky Sports and drinking Stella. After all, I’m doing quite well in the CT fantasy football (quite well for me, that is). And I am a reasonably attractive (but not single … 10th anniversary on Monday!) female person. But there are many of us academic female bloggers. Maybe it’s just that lots of us are pseudonymous for one reason or another. For me, it’s because I kind of like it, and because I’m on the job market. People can figure out who I am if they try hard enough, but I like the veil of the nom de plume.

]]> By: Deb Frisch http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54632 Deb Frisch Sat, 18 Dec 2004 13:50:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54632 Deb: I’m not sure why you are obsessively fixated on the fact that I underestimated the percentage of CT posts by women in December by 8.66667%. “ Dave: She said the percentage was 3. The percentage was actually 11 or so. So she underestimated it by 367%. Deb: Brilliant point, Dave. I estimated p>.95 that some bloke would point this out. If a professor gave a student an 85% on a test but the student really deserved an 86%, the student could either say: a. you were off by 1% OR b. you were off by .011765% Both are acceptable. Similarly, my estimate could either be described as off by 8.667% (11.667-3) OR 367%. Both are kosher. But thanks for the fourth grade math lesson, anyway, dude. Deb: I’m not sure why you are obsessively fixated on the fact that I underestimated the percentage of CT posts by women in December by 8.66667%. “ Dave: She said the percentage was 3. The percentage was actually 11 or so. So she underestimated it by 367%. Deb: Brilliant point, Dave. I estimated p>.95 that some bloke would point this out. If a professor gave a student an 85% on a test but the student really deserved an 86%, the student could either say: a. you were off by 1% OR b. you were off by .011765% Both are acceptable. Similarly, my estimate could either be described as off by 8.667% (11.667-3) OR 367%. Both are kosher. But thanks for the fourth grade math lesson, anyway, dude.

]]> By: Detached Observer http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54631 Detached Observer Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:44:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54631 Deb Frisch, You were "making shit up" not because you gave an incorrect number for the <em>total</em> percentage of posts by women on Crooked Timber - which is the way you seem to understand the charge in your last comment - but because you gave the wrong number for December, the month you used to estimate total percentage. As you yourself put it "I counted two but there were really seven." You try to justify your error not as deliberate but as using a heuristic. Perhaps you are not aware of this, but miscounting is not usually considered a heuristic in applied math. The reason this issue is important is that its pointless to have a debate when the parties are not fundamentally honest. After your repeated mischaracterizations I wonder why anyone bothers to continue debating you. Deb Frisch, You were “making shit up” not because you gave an incorrect number for the total percentage of posts by women on Crooked Timber – which is the way you seem to understand the charge in your last comment – but because you gave the wrong number for December, the month you used to estimate total percentage. As you yourself put it “I counted two but there were really seven.” You try to justify your error not as deliberate but as using a heuristic. Perhaps you are not aware of this, but miscounting is not usually considered a heuristic in applied math. The reason this issue is important is that its pointless to have a debate when the parties are not fundamentally honest. After your repeated mischaracterizations I wonder why anyone bothers to continue debating you.

]]> By: Kenny Easwaran http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54630 Kenny Easwaran Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:32:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54630 I didn't realize how serious the gender ratio issue at CT was until a couple weeks ago when I realized that "Kieran" wasn't a woman's name. Oops. I also think it's funny that some people think this blog is generally economics-ish, some think it's generally sociology-ish, and I thought it was generally philosophy-ish. I suppose that means there's at least a good mix in terms of academic areas represented. If the male-female ratio of posts here is 53-7, the number of female bloggers linked to on the sidebar is 268-42 (with 2 unaccounted for?), and the ratio of in-site posters is 3-13 (2-10, based on the ones I remember more than one or two posts by), then it seems like CT has a better ratio of participants but (possibly) a lower ratio of participation than average, for this reference class. Anyone have any numbers on the number of posts in December by males and females in linked-to blogs? More quantitative data can't hurt. Even though they most likely wont help either. I didn’t realize how serious the gender ratio issue at CT was until a couple weeks ago when I realized that “Kieran” wasn’t a woman’s name. Oops. I also think it’s funny that some people think this blog is generally economics-ish, some think it’s generally sociology-ish, and I thought it was generally philosophy-ish. I suppose that means there’s at least a good mix in terms of academic areas represented. If the male-female ratio of posts here is 53-7, the number of female bloggers linked to on the sidebar is 268-42 (with 2 unaccounted for?), and the ratio of in-site posters is 3-13 (2-10, based on the ones I remember more than one or two posts by), then it seems like CT has a better ratio of participants but (possibly) a lower ratio of participation than average, for this reference class. Anyone have any numbers on the number of posts in December by males and females in linked-to blogs? More quantitative data can’t hurt. Even though they most likely wont help either.

]]> By: liberal japonicus http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54629 liberal japonicus Sat, 18 Dec 2004 06:13:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54629 Look, why don't you let D. Frisch be a guest blogger for 2 weeks or so? As a lurker, I'd really like to see what she thinks is blogworthy that is not being provided. Look, why don’t you let D. Frisch be a guest blogger for 2 weeks or so? As a lurker, I’d really like to see what she thinks is blogworthy that is not being provided.

]]> By: dave heasman http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54628 dave heasman Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:03:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54628 Deb F says :- "I’m not sure why you are obsessively fixated on the fact that I underestimated the percentage of CT posts by women in December by 8.66667%. " She said the percentage was 3. The percentage was actually 11 or so. So she underestimated it by 367%. Deb F says :- “I’m not sure why you are obsessively fixated on the fact that I underestimated the percentage of CT posts by women in December by 8.66667%. ” She said the percentage was 3. The percentage was actually 11 or so. So she underestimated it by 367%.

]]> By: Deb Frisch http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54627 Deb Frisch Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:26:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54627 le poisson des chats: I must say that this is the strangest thread ever to apear on Crooked Timber, beginning as farce before transforming itself into the all too familiar tragedy of internal leftist argument. I was amused, but now I’m just depressed. Roger that, catfish. Last night, I started thinking that if these are the good guys, there's even less hope than I thought. it might be time to drink Jim Jones' koolaid. And you are right - the way that lefties piss on and scratch at each other is depressing, not to mention Pareto non-optimal, given our dire straits. One of the best academic talks I've ever heard (and trust me blokes, I've heard a lot) was by Stanford biologist Robert Sapolsky. He talked about some type of primate that couldn't hunt as a group because when all the dudes started running and chasing some prey, they'd forget the distinction between mate and prey and start attacking each other. Sometimes, it seems like lefties are like that. But right on the other side of the depression, the despair, the desire to cash in the 401K because we are surely in the endgame here is something like hope. Here I am sparring and debating and maybe even sort of, kind of bonding with likeminded folks from the USA, England and the land down under. So, catfish, I am sorry if this sparring caused you despair. But the neutered, comatose left needs to wake up and rise up and part of that awakening process is bitching with each other. le poisson des chats: I must say that this is the strangest thread ever to apear on Crooked Timber, beginning as farce before transforming itself into the all too familiar tragedy of internal leftist argument. I was amused, but now I’m just depressed. Roger that, catfish. Last night, I started thinking that if these are the good guys, there’s even less hope than I thought. it might be time to drink Jim Jones’ koolaid. And you are right – the way that lefties piss on and scratch at each other is depressing, not to mention Pareto non-optimal, given our dire straits. One of the best academic talks I’ve ever heard (and trust me blokes, I’ve heard a lot) was by Stanford biologist Robert Sapolsky. He talked about some type of primate that couldn’t hunt as a group because when all the dudes started running and chasing some prey, they’d forget the distinction between mate and prey and start attacking each other. Sometimes, it seems like lefties are like that. But right on the other side of the depression, the despair, the desire to cash in the 401K because we are surely in the endgame here is something like hope. Here I am sparring and debating and maybe even sort of, kind of bonding with likeminded folks from the USA, England and the land down under. So, catfish, I am sorry if this sparring caused you despair. But the neutered, comatose left needs to wake up and rise up and part of that awakening process is bitching with each other.

]]> By: Maria http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54626 Maria Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:29:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54626 oh Christ, now I feel even MORE guilty for not posting at all this month.... oh Christ, now I feel even MORE guilty for not posting at all this month….

]]> By: Deb Frisch http://crookedtimber.org/2004/12/15/identity-politics-for-all/comment-page-3/#comment-54625 Deb Frisch Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:48:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2661#comment-54625 it was an ass joke, asg. sorry. it was an ass joke, asg. sorry.

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