Comments on: Brass crescent awards

By: David Salmanson

David Salmanson — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:36:58 +0000

It is pretty typical of Hispano families in the NM to legally name children in English but use Spanish names in everyday language. This is particularly true if the surname is not Hispano sounding. It was a way to get around de facto quotas in the days when Hispanos thought of themselves as “white” and Anglos thought of Hispanos as “Mexicans” and Mexicans as “Mexicans from Mexico.” Fpr further details see John Nieto Phillips’ PhD diss. No other Blood

By: Ophelia Benson

Ophelia Benson — Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:25:58 +0000

Blimey. This comment thread is no doubt deceased, but I feel as if I ought to clear up a couple of things. Gary, yes, that is a misreading on your part. My point (or ‘snark’ if you will have it so) was certainly elliptical, but I wasn’t implying what you take me to have been implying. “But I do believe that Jonathan Edelstein might be at least as surprised as I am to have it implied, as Ophelia does, that either of us is “Christian”;” I didn’t (at least in intention) imply that at all. “as surprised as I am at the notion that “respectful” in the slightest way implies “uncritical.”” As I pointed out in my reply to Chris’ reply to me – that was a question. Not an assertion, a question. That’s why I put a question mark after it – because it was a question. I wasn’t sure what the word meant in that context. I ventured a guess, but the guess was interrogative. “That last simply astounds me; is the fact that courtesy and intellectual honesty are separable concepts truly little known?” Well since I’m not sure what ‘respectful’ means in this context, I don’t know if it means simply ‘courtesy’ or something else. And ‘respectful’ does sometimes get used (I could point you to some discussions of this on B&W if you’re interested) to mean, well, cautious about criticising, to put it no more strongly than that. “It’s equally unclear to me why, as I take Ophelia’s snark to imply – and I welcome correction regarding any misreading on my part – I should be either uncurious about, uninterested in, or automatically disrespectful of, a writer expressing views Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheistic, Hindu” etc No, that’s not what my ‘snark’ is meant to imply. My question was just a dog bites person type question. “But I’m even more surprised if an intelligent commentator didn’t take note of the different position a minority culture has in a majority culture, and found taking some little interest in the lesser-known culture worthy of ridicule.” Well that’s exactly what I was wondering, and the kind of answer I was hoping to elicit. Except not phrased exactly that way. Did you phrase it that way on purpose or have people simply lost sight of the distinction between religion and ‘culture’? The category was blogs by Muslims. Islam is a religion. Now I’ll tell you exactly why I find ‘taking some little interest in the lesser-known culture worthy of ridicule’. Because that interest is not matched by some little interest in an even lesser-known – and far more minority, weak, vulnerable, under threat – ‘culture’ than that of Islam: the ‘culture’ of secularists from majority-Muslim countries who work for human rights and feminism and get roundly ignored while people fawn over catgories like ‘blogs by Muslims.’ That’s why. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, take a look at the articles section at B&W: you’ll find a good few articles by such people, who get way less attention (and, indeed, ‘respect’) than they ought to. That’s why. “Plus, I hear Islam has been in the news from time to time of late; obviously, it’s best to know as little as possible about it, or to only read attacks on it from outsiders.” Exactly. Which is why one would think criticisms (not ‘attacks’) from insiders would be of interest. “But that brings us back to the notion that to be intellectually honest, and maintain one’s ability to be critical, one must be discourteous and lacking in intellectual curiosity. Or something.” Nope. “I’m really not clear what Ophelia’s POV is, frankly” I hope I’ve managed to shed a little light on the subject. (And I do realize that, as I said, my comment was cryptic.)

By: Luc

Luc — Sat, 15 Jan 2005 03:49:45 +0000

Indeed Luc, but where was the nomination for “most respectful non-christian blog”? Which was the original 64k$ question. I don’t know the answer to that. But if there were such a category, a simple guess regarding religion would qualify all four mentioned above. Is that typical or what?

By: Giles

Giles — Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:58:01 +0000

Indeed Luc, but where was the nomination for “most respectful non-christian blog”?

By: Luc

Luc — Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:52:46 +0000

After reading all of this I think Ophilia is more to the point than than I initially thought. Once again, Ophelia, your a priori view of how the world must be is getting in the way of you seeing how it actually is. Is little more than a funny suggestion that militant atheism is equal to a religion. Anyway, for the Google impaired ("christian blog" award, first link gives the clue), the Superblessed Christian Blog Award winners 2004 And this is the finest example of old style christian youth entertainment i've seen in a long while. "Porn again Christians" ...

By: Chris Bertram

Chris Bertram — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:19:52 +0000

Gary, I wasn’t about to list all the blogs in that category. But it was an oversight not to list yours, and I apologise—a product of blogging whilst in a hurry. I’m going to amend the post to include you.

By: Giles

Giles — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:09:18 +0000

“perhaps even as surprised as I am at the notion that “respectful” in the slightest way implies “uncritical.” I think that was what surprised Cole about Bahi – looking at the letters he sent and got. He though respectful meant what you understand it to mean. IN fact it meant soemthing entirely different to the counsellors.

By: Giles

Giles — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:29:35 +0000

Obviously Jaume, most religions are from the Middle East. But the interest in Middle Eastern Politics amongst Bahai’s seems to me to be very high – I’m again thinking about Kelly as an example.

By: Gary Farber

Gary Farber — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:26:00 +0000

While we’re busy snarking over these awards, and focusing pretty much entirely on the single non-Muslim category—clearly the most important aspect—I’ll note that when Chris writes: “…and for blogs by non-Muslims that engage respecfully with Islam. Juan Cole , Jonathan Edelstein and Scott Martens all get nominated in various categories,” that it turns out that there were actually 11 blogs nominated in the non-Muslim category, and CT actually blogrolls others besides those three; Chris even used to link to at least one. But I do believe that Jonathan Edelstein might be at least as surprised as I am to have it implied, as Ophelia does, that either of us is “Christian”; perhaps even as surprised as I am at the notion that “respectful” in the slightest way implies “uncritical.” That last simply astounds me; is the fact that courtesy and intellectual honesty are separable concepts truly little known? It’s equally unclear to me why, as I take Ophelia’s snark to imply—and I welcome correction regarding any misreading on my part—I should be either uncurious about, uninterested in, or automatically disrespectful of, a writer expressing views Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheistic, Hindu, animist, Bahai’, Sikh, Shinto, Trekkie, Mac-ist, or chocolate-worshipper. Or writing about topics under those categories. But I’m even more surprised if an intelligent commentator didn’t take note of the different position a minority culture has in a majority culture, and found taking some little interest in the lesser-known culture worthy of ridicule. Plus, I hear Islam has been in the news from time to time of late; obviously, it’s best to know as little as possible about it, or to only read attacks on it from outsiders. But that brings us back to the notion that to be intellectually honest, and maintain one’s ability to be critical, one must be discourteous and lacking in intellectual curiosity. Or something. I’m really not clear what Ophelia’s POV is, frankly, which is a surprise given the clarity I’ve seen her bring to a number of articles.

By: Antoni Jaume

Antoni Jaume — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:09:20 +0000

Giles, the baha’i religion is from the middle east, where it was created in the XIX century, given this I think it is logical that it would attract mostly those Western people who learnt of it because of their interest in the Middle East. DSW

By: Giles

Giles — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:58:19 +0000

Another thing I’m curious about is where and why bahai’s are obssessed with the middle east. David Kelly was a bahai and so I discover was John Cole. Is this relevant? Well I dont know.

By: Joe M.

Joe M. — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:42:38 +0000

Well, if you keep changing my hypothetical from an extremely unusual decision to a completely normal decision, it’s no wonder that you wouldn’t be curious. In other words, for a “Timothy” to go by the nickname “Tim” is utterly routine and normal. Hence not something to be curious about. But my actual example was to ask what if “Timothy” switched to a different language and started going by “Timoteo”? You wouldn’t be curious? Or what if a “Peter” started saying his name was “Pyotr”? Or what if a “Paul” started using “Pavel”? You’re really saying that you wouldn’t wonder if there was some fascinating story behind the decision to reverse-Anglicize a name? Even if you wouldn’t be curious yourself, do you really think that it is justified to call it a “strange insinuation” for someone else to be mildly curious?

By: Ralph Luker

Ralph Luker — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:05:53 +0000

Joe, My colleagues and former colleagues at Cliopatria would assure you, I think, that I am extra-ordinarily curious. It’s just that some things are a lot more worth being curious about than others. Why Timothy Burke calls himself Tim isn’t one of them.

By: SamChevre

SamChevre — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:26:19 +0000

Ophelia—if you’re actually interested in the Christian blogosphere, here are some blogs to check out. Southern Appeal (Catholic) Eve Tushnet The Evangelical Outpost The Right Coast (Gail Heriot in particular) Russell Arben Fox (Mormon)

By: Giles

Giles — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:19:37 +0000

Junius Its not a secret but isnt it a bit wierd that a middle eastern expert got expelled from a middle eastern religion and doesnt know why?