Comments on: Is Iran next? And if so, how? http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 14:07:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Crooked Timber » » Everything’s coming up Persian http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-88283 Crooked Timber » » Everything’s coming up Persian Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:59:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-88283 [...] On the same day, Iran broke the seals on an atomic processing facility. More on Iranian nuclear plans here and here. posted on Wednesday, August 10th, 2005 at 10:59 am Post a comment [...] [...] On the same day, Iran broke the seals on an atomic processing facility. More on Iranian nuclear plans here and here. posted on Wednesday, August 10th, 2005 at 10:59 am Post a comment [...]

]]> By: seth edenbaum http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57793 seth edenbaum Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:47:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57793 Who says I "made it up" Is it illogical to make assumptions based on past experience? Should I not listen to my friends? And do you think one visit to your utopia is going to make me a zionist? "But you're a Jew!" How many times have I heard that; as if nationalism trumps morality. That's Cynthia Ozick's argument, and yours too I suppose. It disgusts me. I'm done. Who says I “made it up” Is it illogical to make assumptions based on past experience? Should I not listen to my friends? And do you think one visit to your utopia is going to make me a zionist? “But you’re a Jew!” How many times have I heard that; as if nationalism trumps morality. That’s Cynthia Ozick’s argument, and yours too I suppose. It disgusts me. I’m done.

]]> By: Gary Rosen http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57792 Gary Rosen Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:49:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57792 Seth, Thanks for acknowledging that you just completely made up your baloney about what goes on in cafes in Israel and Iran. But then you've *slept* with both Israelis and Iranians, I guess that means you must have an impartial, detached view of them both no doubt. Seth, Thanks for acknowledging that you just completely made up your baloney about what goes on in cafes in Israel and Iran. But then you’ve slept with both Israelis and Iranians, I guess that means you must have an impartial, detached view of them both no doubt.

]]> By: seth edenbaum http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57791 seth edenbaum Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:50:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57791 I'm a jew in NYC, Israelis are a dime a dozen. There are plenty of Iranians too (I've slept with both.) And I am never going to Israel. Teheran, however, is on my short list. Now go find yourself an Amos Kollek film festival and be<i>proud</i>. tschuss. I’m a jew in NYC, Israelis are a dime a dozen. There are plenty of Iranians too (I’ve slept with both.) And I am never going to Israel. Teheran, however, is on my short list. Now go find yourself an Amos Kollek film festival and beproud. tschuss.

]]> By: Gary Rosen http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57790 Gary Rosen Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:00:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57790 abb1: "I don’t think you’re correct about ‘80 years of annihilationist rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world" Guess you don't know about the Mufti, or don't want to admit it: http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/muftism.htm As for the 1948 war and refugees, the fact is that Jews accepted the partition of Palestine and the Arabs didn't, vowing extermination. Noted also is your acceptance of the fact that any refugees justify the intent to commit genocide against the Jews. And don't accuse me of overstating the case, because that is exactly what the Arab states publicly and explicitly have advocated over and over again. seth: I'll take your non-answer to my question as an admission you have never even been to Israel *or* Iran, much less spent a lot of time in cafes there debating politics. abb1: “I don’t think you’re correct about ‘80 years of annihilationist rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world” Guess you don’t know about the Mufti, or don’t want to admit it: http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/muftism.htm As for the 1948 war and refugees, the fact is that Jews accepted the partition of Palestine and the Arabs didn’t, vowing extermination. Noted also is your acceptance of the fact that any refugees justify the intent to commit genocide against the Jews. And don’t accuse me of overstating the case, because that is exactly what the Arab states publicly and explicitly have advocated over and over again. seth: I’ll take your non-answer to my question as an admission you have never even been to Israel or Iran, much less spent a lot of time in cafes there debating politics.

]]> By: seth edenbaum http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57789 seth edenbaum Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:53:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57789 JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel has quietly seized large tracts of Jerusalem land owned by Palestinian residents of the West Bank after they were cut off from their property by Israel's separation barrier, lawyers of the landowners said. The land was taken after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government decided <b>several months ago</b> to enforce a long-dormant law that allows Israel to seize lands of Palestinians who fled or were driven out during the 1948-49 Mideast war that followed Israel's creation. <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4750947,00.html">link</a> JERUSALEM (AP) – Israel has quietly seized large tracts of Jerusalem land owned by Palestinian residents of the West Bank after they were cut off from their property by Israel’s separation barrier, lawyers of the landowners said. The land was taken after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government decided several months ago to enforce a long-dormant law that allows Israel to seize lands of Palestinians who fled or were driven out during the 1948-49 Mideast war that followed Israel’s creation. link

]]> By: Thomas http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57788 Thomas Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:02:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57788 Why do I think that the glassyfication of Israel would bring instant retribution? Because a theoretical iranian government that did that would have just proven that it is willing and able to genocide people without cause, reason or provocation. Nobody can tolerate the continued existance of actors like that in the same world they occupy and that would mean instant mushroom clouds over Iran. But the actual iranians are not this insane. Why do I think that the glassyfication of Israel would bring instant retribution? Because a theoretical iranian government that did that would have just proven that it is willing and able to genocide people without cause, reason or provocation. Nobody can tolerate the continued existance of actors like that in the same world they occupy and that would mean instant mushroom clouds over Iran. But the actual iranians are not this insane.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57787 abb1 Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:24:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57787 Gary, I don't think you're correct about '80 years of annihilationist rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world' and I don't think it's true that 1948 war started before the refugee problem existed. <a href="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/arab_invasion.html">Arab League Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine</a> of May 15, 1948 states: <blockquote> Second: Security and order in Palestine have become disrupted. The Zionist aggression resulted in the exodus of more than a quarter of a million of its Arab inhabitants from their homes and in their taking refuge in the neighbouring Arab countries. </blockquote> Not to mention leading Israeli historians (like Benny Morris). So, the answer is: yes, I do have a reason to believe that Israel’s hard-line policies caused by something else than rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world. I suspect radical Jewish nationalism and religious extremism played a role. Gary, I don’t think you’re correct about ‘80 years of annihilationist rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world’ and I don’t think it’s true that 1948 war started before the refugee problem existed. Arab League Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine of May 15, 1948 states:
Second: Security and order in Palestine have become disrupted. The Zionist aggression resulted in the exodus of more than a quarter of a million of its Arab inhabitants from their homes and in their taking refuge in the neighbouring Arab countries.
Not to mention leading Israeli historians (like Benny Morris). So, the answer is: yes, I do have a reason to believe that Israel’s hard-line policies caused by something else than rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world. I suspect radical Jewish nationalism and religious extremism played a role.

]]> By: Gary Rosen http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57786 Gary Rosen Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:13:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57786 Seth: "In which country could I sit in a cafe and have a discussion of politics, of democracy and poilitical culture at large, and have a smaller chance of that conversation ending in embarrassment or anger?" Seth, how many discussions of "politics, democracy, and political culture at large" have you had in Israel, and in Iran? Just checking your sample size. Seth: “In which country could I sit in a cafe and have a discussion of politics, of democracy and poilitical culture at large, and have a smaller chance of that conversation ending in embarrassment or anger?” Seth, how many discussions of “politics, democracy, and political culture at large” have you had in Israel, and in Iran? Just checking your sample size.

]]> By: Gary Rosen http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57785 Gary Rosen Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:08:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57785 abb1: "do you have a reason to believe that council’s animosity to Israel is caused by anything but imperialistic character of Israeli politics?" Do you have any reason to believe that Israel's hard-line policies, and the weakening of moderates over the years, is caused by anything other than 80 years of annihilationist rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world, backed by numerous wars (going back to 1948 before the "refugee" problem even existed) started for the expressly stated purpose of "finishing what Hitler started"? abb1: “do you have a reason to believe that council’s animosity to Israel is caused by anything but imperialistic character of Israeli politics?” Do you have any reason to believe that Israel’s hard-line policies, and the weakening of moderates over the years, is caused by anything other than 80 years of annihilationist rhetoric from the Arab and Muslim world, backed by numerous wars (going back to 1948 before the “refugee” problem even existed) started for the expressly stated purpose of “finishing what Hitler started”?

]]> By: Alireza http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57784 Alireza Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:21:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57784 Gary: The policy I mentioned comes out of President Khatami's government. No one in the Guardian Council makes foreign policy statements. Members may denounce a certain policy and endorse another at Friday Prayer sermons etc, but those do not bind anyone (and certainly not the government). The statements of Khatami and his cabinet do not contradict the policy of the Supreme Leader; if they did he would reject them immediately. Usually, when statements of this level of importance are concerned, the government (from Khatami on down) consults the Leader before saying anything. And even when Ayatollah Khamenei talks toughest about Palestine (which is basically when he says that the solution is for all Palestinian refugees to return and for a referendum to be held by all the "true" residents of the land, whether Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, about the nature of any future state), this still doesn't contradict the basic line that Iran will still not push for this "ideal" if the Palestinians themselves do not want it. Gary: The policy I mentioned comes out of President Khatami’s government. No one in the Guardian Council makes foreign policy statements. Members may denounce a certain policy and endorse another at Friday Prayer sermons etc, but those do not bind anyone (and certainly not the government). The statements of Khatami and his cabinet do not contradict the policy of the Supreme Leader; if they did he would reject them immediately. Usually, when statements of this level of importance are concerned, the government (from Khatami on down) consults the Leader before saying anything. And even when Ayatollah Khamenei talks toughest about Palestine (which is basically when he says that the solution is for all Palestinian refugees to return and for a referendum to be held by all the “true” residents of the land, whether Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, about the nature of any future state), this still doesn’t contradict the basic line that Iran will still not push for this “ideal” if the Palestinians themselves do not want it.

]]> By: seth edenbaum http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57783 seth edenbaum Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:17:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57783 -I take the reformers in Iran very seriously. I do not take the 'reformers' -call them moderates if you want- in Israel very seriously at all. -What is the position of the reformers in Iran vis-a-vis the Iranian public? What is the position etc. of the Israeli moderates? -Whom is more worthy of our 'constructive engagement,' the Iranian government (and people) or the Israeli government (and people)? -Which country is more politically isolated? -Which has a higher percentage of extremists in its population. -Which has a civic culture (<i>as opposed to an official culture</i>) based on hypocrisy and false history? -Which is more likely to be a stable society at the end of its current crisis, and which is most likely to self destruct? (take a wild guess.) -In which country could I sit in a cafe and have a discussion of politics, of democracy and poilitical culture at large, and have a smaller chance of that conversation ending in embarrassment or anger? -Which country has more than a passing resemblance to Rhodesia? What I don't sound like is an American. Which is why most of my friends are foreign born. Jet, you should either change your name or get out more often. I take the reformers in Iran very seriously. I do not take the ‘reformers’ -call them moderates if you want in Israel very seriously at all. What is the position of the reformers in Iran visa-vis the Iranian public? What is the position etc. of the Israeli moderates? -Whom is more worthy of our ‘constructive engagement,’ the Iranian government (and people) or the Israeli government (and people)? -Which country is more politically isolated? -Which has a higher percentage of extremists in its population. -Which has a civic culture (as opposed to an official culture) based on hypocrisy and false history? -Which is more likely to be a stable society at the end of its current crisis, and which is most likely to self destruct? (take a wild guess.) -In which country could I sit in a cafe and have a discussion of politics, of democracy and poilitical culture at large, and have a smaller chance of that conversation ending in embarrassment or anger? -Which country has more than a passing resemblance to Rhodesia? What I don’t sound like is an American. Which is why most of my friends are foreign born. Jet, you should either change your name or get out more often.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57782 jet Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:58:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57782 Seth, "Israel is the wild card here, and no one else." You make right wing talk radio sound so reasonable. Do you understand how crazy that sounds to people who disagree with you? Is it your intent to persuade, or to blast people with illogical rhetoric? Because one is usefull and the other counter-productive. But either way, good luck with all that and if I weren't so interested in a functioning democracy, I'd egg you on. Seth, “Israel is the wild card here, and no one else.” You make right wing talk radio sound so reasonable. Do you understand how crazy that sounds to people who disagree with you? Is it your intent to persuade, or to blast people with illogical rhetoric? Because one is usefull and the other counter-productive. But either way, good luck with all that and if I weren’t so interested in a functioning democracy, I’d egg you on.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57781 abb1 Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:01:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57781 Well, Gary, to look at this from another angle, do you have a reason to believe that council's animosity to Israel is caused by anything but imperialistic character of Israeli politics? And, should peace and at least some kind of harmony be achieved there, why wouldn't it satisfy the council? There isn't much hope of that happening, I know, but doesn't it sound like a slightly better option than exchanging nuclear strikes? Well, Gary, to look at this from another angle, do you have a reason to believe that council’s animosity to Israel is caused by anything but imperialistic character of Israeli politics? And, should peace and at least some kind of harmony be achieved there, why wouldn’t it satisfy the council? There isn’t much hope of that happening, I know, but doesn’t it sound like a slightly better option than exchanging nuclear strikes?

]]> By: Gary Farber http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/20/is-iran-next-and-if-so-how/comment-page-2/#comment-57780 Gary Farber Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:23:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2772#comment-57780 "The palestinians and other Arab states (through Saudi Arabia and Syria) have consistently been offering a two-state solution for years now." "Palestinians" gets a capital. Yes, this is, essentially, true (although the quibbly little details remain significant). As well, Norway, Australia, Mexico, and Tonga also favor a two-state solution, among others. What this has to do with Iran, I have no idea. "...the standard government line for several years has been that Iran is not more Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves: If they reach a settlement with Israel, Iran will respect it." I would be delighted to believe this. Since it is true, please provide three cites of the Supreme Leader publically saying this. Since it is so clearly true, there couldn't possibly be any problem in instantly providing such citations (hey, he must have said it many times, I'm sure, as have most of the members of the Guardian Council). I will be most happy to help spread the good word about this as soon as I am armed with the proper profusion of citations. (Note: words from Khatami, or other known liberals below the level of the Guardian Council don't count, do they?) “The palestinians and other Arab states (through Saudi Arabia and Syria) have consistently been offering a two-state solution for years now.” “Palestinians” gets a capital. Yes, this is, essentially, true (although the quibbly little details remain significant). As well, Norway, Australia, Mexico, and Tonga also favor a two-state solution, among others. What this has to do with Iran, I have no idea. “…the standard government line for several years has been that Iran is not more Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves: If they reach a settlement with Israel, Iran will respect it.” I would be delighted to believe this. Since it is true, please provide three cites of the Supreme Leader publically saying this. Since it is so clearly true, there couldn’t possibly be any problem in instantly providing such citations (hey, he must have said it many times, I’m sure, as have most of the members of the Guardian Council). I will be most happy to help spread the good word about this as soon as I am armed with the proper profusion of citations. (Note: words from Khatami, or other known liberals below the level of the Guardian Council don’t count, do they?)

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