Comments on: Pundits all the way down http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 14:07:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57902 Seth Finkelstein Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:03:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57902 Moreover, if someone does go out and dig up an Actual, Reported Fact, it's often quite difficult to figure out how to get it further publicized. If it's part of a national scandal, sure, there can be plenty of echoing. But who will ever hear a random blogger's account of a city council meeting, if it doesn't feed into some sort of bigger media? (whether paper or net). At that point, one is simply a volunteer "stringer". Moreover, if someone does go out and dig up an Actual, Reported Fact, it’s often quite difficult to figure out how to get it further publicized. If it’s part of a national scandal, sure, there can be plenty of echoing. But who will ever hear a random blogger’s account of a city council meeting, if it doesn’t feed into some sort of bigger media? (whether paper or net). At that point, one is simply a volunteer “stringer”.

]]> By: Doug http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57901 Doug Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:00:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57901 <a href="http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/feynman.html">There's plenty of room at the bottom</a>. There’s plenty of room at the bottom.

]]> By: Scaramouche http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57900 Scaramouche Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:35:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57900 Hell, yeah! Most bloggers live to mock the media. And most of posting I've seen is derivative. Though their significance as a primary sources may be lost through the volume of voices. First hand reporting is an noble idea but how do we filter out the original from all the background noise? Hell, yeah! Most bloggers live to mock the media. And most of posting I’ve seen is derivative. Though their significance as a primary sources may be lost through the volume of voices. First hand reporting is an noble idea but how do we filter out the original from all the background noise?

]]> By: James C. Hess http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57899 James C. Hess Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:50:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57899 It sounds like sour grapes to me. For the first time in a very long time the mainstream news media is being held accountable and responsible for what it reports. That is the basic intent of many a blog. As to the political aspect of blogging, just because, at the moment, the right of center bloggers are more organized and better scribes than those to the left of center means nothing. In the end it is the reader who will make the difference. It sounds like sour grapes to me. For the first time in a very long time the mainstream news media is being held accountable and responsible for what it reports. That is the basic intent of many a blog. As to the political aspect of blogging, just because, at the moment, the right of center bloggers are more organized and better scribes than those to the left of center means nothing. In the end it is the reader who will make the difference.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57898 bad Jim Sat, 22 Jan 2005 06:41:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57898 Blogging city council meetings? Please! I already have a mother (a member back in the 70's and still a force in various groups), local papers, council meetings broadcast live on Tuesdays ... even our local alternative weekly figures our city doesn't need more coverage. Come to think of it, though, this highly politicized community might not be the worst place to start a blog, whether or not we need one: <blockquote> Our newest beach front resort hotel wants to expand its recently acquired 9-hole golf course onto the adjoining wilderness park. The developers are presenting their case to the County Supervisors, whose elections they funded. <i>1309 comments</i> </blockquote> I'd like to take exception to y81's comment above that reporters don't actually contribute to history. They do collect eyewitness accounts soon after the event, which is valuable, perishable material, no matter how undependable. Blogging city council meetings? Please! I already have a mother (a member back in the 70’s and still a force in various groups), local papers, council meetings broadcast live on Tuesdays … even our local alternative weekly figures our city doesn’t need more coverage. Come to think of it, though, this highly politicized community might not be the worst place to start a blog, whether or not we need one:
Our newest beach front resort hotel wants to expand its recently acquired 9-hole golf course onto the adjoining wilderness park. The developers are presenting their case to the County Supervisors, whose elections they funded. 1309 comments
I’d like to take exception to y81’s comment above that reporters don’t actually contribute to history. They do collect eyewitness accounts soon after the event, which is valuable, perishable material, no matter how undependable.

]]> By: The One True b!X http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57897 The One True b!X Sat, 22 Jan 2005 06:33:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57897 Ears... burning... Anyway, there's a rather abnormal amount of local blogging activity taking place in <a href="http://www.greensboro101.com/">Greensboro, NC</a>, including elected officials and, yes, people reporting from things like official city and county sessions. Ears… burning… Anyway, there’s a rather abnormal amount of local blogging activity taking place in Greensboro, NC, including elected officials and, yes, people reporting from things like official city and county sessions.

]]> By: Ampersand http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57896 Ampersand Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:48:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57896 Jason wrote: <i>But here’s a question: Why aren’t bloggers going to city council meetings, communicating with their representatives, and at least doing research on local issues?</i> There are at least a couple of local bloggers here in Portland who will at least talk to local city government folk (or even have them leave comments). The best of them is <a href="http://communique.portland.or.us/">The One True b!X</a>, who does an extraordinary amount of high-quality original reporting about local Portland politics, and is constantly struggling for the funding to keep himself and his blog going. I'm not sure if any other cities have a b!X-like blogger, though... Jason wrote: But here’s a question: Why aren’t bloggers going to city council meetings, communicating with their representatives, and at least doing research on local issues? There are at least a couple of local bloggers here in Portland who will at least talk to local city government folk (or even have them leave comments). The best of them is The One True b!X, who does an extraordinary amount of high-quality original reporting about local Portland politics, and is constantly struggling for the funding to keep himself and his blog going. I’m not sure if any other cities have a b!X-like blogger, though…

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57895 Katherine Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:20:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57895 "Powerlines of the world will inevitably get more attention than Iraq the Model (my favorite of the Iraqi blogs—he’d be a hell of a foreign correspondent.)" D'oh. Brain freeze. Healing Iraq, I meant. (Nothing against Iraq the Model, but I don't even read it.) “Powerlines of the world will inevitably get more attention than Iraq the Model (my favorite of the Iraqi blogs—he’d be a hell of a foreign correspondent.)” D’oh. Brain freeze. Healing Iraq, I meant. (Nothing against Iraq the Model, but I don’t even read it.)

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57894 Katherine Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:13:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57894 Someone mentioned the "I.F. Stone function above"....my parents bought me his collected columns from the weekly as a college graduation present, back when I was trying to be a journalist. This strikes me as a wonderful mission statement for a weblog: "I tried to give information which could be documented so the reader could check it for himself. I tried to dig the truth out of hearings, official transcripts and government documents, and to be as accurate as possible. I also sought to give the Weekly a personal flavor, to add humor, wit and good writing to the Weekly report. I felt if one were able enough and had sufficient vision one could distill meaning, truth and even beauty from the swiftly flowing debris of the week's news.... The reporter assigned to specific beats lie the State Department or the Pentagon for a wire service or a big daily newspaper soon finds himself a captive. State and Pentagon have large press relations forces whose job it is to herd the press and shape the news. There are many ways to punish a reporter who gets out of line; if a big story breaks at 3 A.M., the press office may neglect to notify him while his rivals get the story. There are as many ways to flatter and take a reporter into camp--private off-the-record dinners with high officials, entertainment at the service clubs. Reporters tend to be absorbed by the bureaucracies they cover; they take on the habits, attitudes and even accents of the military or the diplomatic corps. Should a reporter resist the pressure, there are many ways to get rid of him.... But a reporter covering the whole capital on his own--particularly if he is his own employer--is immune from these pressures. Washington is full of news--if one story is denied him he can always get another. The bureaucracies put out so much that they cannot help letting the truth slip from time to time. The town is open." --I.F. Stone, Introduction to The Haunted Fifties. Someone mentioned the “I.F. Stone function above”….my parents bought me his collected columns from the weekly as a college graduation present, back when I was trying to be a journalist. This strikes me as a wonderful mission statement for a weblog: “I tried to give information which could be documented so the reader could check it for himself. I tried to dig the truth out of hearings, official transcripts and government documents, and to be as accurate as possible. I also sought to give the Weekly a personal flavor, to add humor, wit and good writing to the Weekly report. I felt if one were able enough and had sufficient vision one could distill meaning, truth and even beauty from the swiftly flowing debris of the week’s news…. The reporter assigned to specific beats lie the State Department or the Pentagon for a wire service or a big daily newspaper soon finds himself a captive. State and Pentagon have large press relations forces whose job it is to herd the press and shape the news. There are many ways to punish a reporter who gets out of line; if a big story breaks at 3 A.M., the press office may neglect to notify him while his rivals get the story. There are as many ways to flatter and take a reporter into camp—private off-the-record dinners with high officials, entertainment at the service clubs. Reporters tend to be absorbed by the bureaucracies they cover; they take on the habits, attitudes and even accents of the military or the diplomatic corps. Should a reporter resist the pressure, there are many ways to get rid of him…. But a reporter covering the whole capital on his own—particularly if he is his own employer—is immune from these pressures. Washington is full of news—if one story is denied him he can always get another. The bureaucracies put out so much that they cannot help letting the truth slip from time to time. The town is open.” —I.F. Stone, Introduction to The Haunted Fifties.

]]> By: jam http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57893 jam Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:11:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57893 But the value of blogs is that they're an amplification device. The "Actual Reported Fact" would, in their absence, have been buried on p. 40 of some provincial newspaper that few read. Consider the example of the Cosgrove miscarriage reporting bill. The blogs (not just the political blogs, either; there's a bunch of reproduction-centered blogs which picked it up, too) publicised it, each picking it up from another, and caused Cosgrove to withdraw it. An amplification device with no inputs just generates feedback, of course: the high-pitched whine of the echo chamber. That's what Dery's complaining about. But that's a consequence of pundits all the way down, anchored on no Actual Reported Fact. But the value of blogs is that they’re an amplification device. The “Actual Reported Fact” would, in their absence, have been buried on p. 40 of some provincial newspaper that few read. Consider the example of the Cosgrove miscarriage reporting bill. The blogs (not just the political blogs, either; there’s a bunch of reproduction-centered blogs which picked it up, too) publicised it, each picking it up from another, and caused Cosgrove to withdraw it. An amplification device with no inputs just generates feedback, of course: the high-pitched whine of the echo chamber. That’s what Dery’s complaining about. But that’s a consequence of pundits all the way down, anchored on no Actual Reported Fact.

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57892 Katherine Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:06:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57892 Some of us are trying. It IS possible. It's not easy, but it's possible. Some advice: 1) Mooch off the foreign english-speaking press, they're better than ours. England, Canada, Australia, and Israel. 2) If you notice a story based on public documents or some statistical studies--go to the documents themselves. Chances are a daily newspaper reporter has skimmed a bit, and sometimes they've missed something really, really important. I may have uncovered, for the first time, a real story this way, and an important story. I haven't actually blogged about it, I've been nagging reporters who have the resources to follow up instead. But I wouldn't have found it if I'd never blogged, so it sort of counts. 3) Pick a subject or a story that really interests you, and make it your own. You can make yourself an expert, and by reading all the different reporters' work you'll get a sense of the bigger picture that daily reporters don't see, or you can draw conclusion they're not allowed to publish because that would be biased. Google News makes this easy to do. 4) It is frustrating, that the most substantive things you do will almost inevitably not get the most attention, and the Powerlines of the world will inevitably get more attention than Iraq the Model (my favorite of the Iraqi blogs--he'd be a hell of a foreign correspondent.) Some of us are trying. It IS possible. It’s not easy, but it’s possible. Some advice: 1) Mooch off the foreign english-speaking press, they’re better than ours. England, Canada, Australia, and Israel. 2) If you notice a story based on public documents or some statistical studies—go to the documents themselves. Chances are a daily newspaper reporter has skimmed a bit, and sometimes they’ve missed something really, really important. I may have uncovered, for the first time, a real story this way, and an important story. I haven’t actually blogged about it, I’ve been nagging reporters who have the resources to follow up instead. But I wouldn’t have found it if I’d never blogged, so it sort of counts. 3) Pick a subject or a story that really interests you, and make it your own. You can make yourself an expert, and by reading all the different reporters’ work you’ll get a sense of the bigger picture that daily reporters don’t see, or you can draw conclusion they’re not allowed to publish because that would be biased. Google News makes this easy to do. 4) It is frustrating, that the most substantive things you do will almost inevitably not get the most attention, and the Powerlines of the world will inevitably get more attention than Iraq the Model (my favorite of the Iraqi blogs—he’d be a hell of a foreign correspondent.)

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57891 John Quiggin Sat, 22 Jan 2005 03:42:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57891 It's true that the average blogger isn't a war reporter, but the proportion of news that comes from reporters actually going out and finding things isn't that great. In a lot of cases, the starting point is press releases, statistical announcements, sporting matches, academic articles and conferences and so on. Bloggers can and do go to these sources directly. It’s true that the average blogger isn’t a war reporter, but the proportion of news that comes from reporters actually going out and finding things isn’t that great. In a lot of cases, the starting point is press releases, statistical announcements, sporting matches, academic articles and conferences and so on. Bloggers can and do go to these sources directly.

]]> By: Josh Zeidner http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57890 Josh Zeidner Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:26:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57890 "This just in... Blogs all over the internet say that TV media is worthless... citing facts that illustrate medias complete inability to actually report on anything... were going to the Instapundit blog right now... Im dan rather and Im currently typing in a comment on Instapundit. It appears as though after I have entered my comment it appears on the screen as I have typed it. were going live washington: "Dan, our experts have confirmed that it is in fact possible to comment on blogs. We have Harvard Doctorates here who have confirmed this fact. "An interesting development ladies and gentlemen... we will return to Instapundit later after a report on the westminster dog show. good night.... “This just in… Blogs all over the internet say that TV media is worthless… citing facts that illustrate medias complete inability to actually report on anything… were going to the Instapundit blog right now… Im dan rather and Im currently typing in a comment on Instapundit. It appears as though after I have entered my comment it appears on the screen as I have typed it. were going live washington: “Dan, our experts have confirmed that it is in fact possible to comment on blogs. We have Harvard Doctorates here who have confirmed this fact. “An interesting development ladies and gentlemen… we will return to Instapundit later after a report on the westminster dog show. good night….

]]> By: ed hall http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57889 ed hall Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:02:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57889 Back during the party conventions, when bloggers were invited to actually come and witness an actual (if somewhat contrived) media event, there was scant evidence of any reportorial competence. I'd have thought that more of them would have gotten the idea of stashing the laptop and actually going out and talking with people for a while, or even if laptop-bound doing man-on-the-street-style reporting with a confederate on a cell phone. Back during the party conventions, when bloggers were invited to actually come and witness an actual (if somewhat contrived) media event, there was scant evidence of any reportorial competence. I’d have thought that more of them would have gotten the idea of stashing the laptop and actually going out and talking with people for a while, or even if laptop-bound doing man-on-the-street-style reporting with a confederate on a cell phone.

]]> By: Jason Kuznicki http://crookedtimber.org/2005/01/21/pundits-all-the-way-down/comment-page-1/#comment-57888 Jason Kuznicki Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:27:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2776#comment-57888 Hal's still right about the new media, and Sturgeon's law still applies: 90% of everything is crap. (Yeah, yeah, my stuff too. Chill out.) But here's a question: Why aren't bloggers going to city council meetings, communicating with their representatives, and at least doing research on local issues? This is stuff they could do at a very small cost--nothing, certainly, like traveling to Iraq. How about it, bloggers: Can we start writing about the local issues, which we at least have a decent shot at covering? Hal’s still right about the new media, and Sturgeon’s law still applies: 90% of everything is crap. (Yeah, yeah, my stuff too. Chill out.) But here’s a question: Why aren’t bloggers going to city council meetings, communicating with their representatives, and at least doing research on local issues? This is stuff they could do at a very small cost—nothing, certainly, like traveling to Iraq. How about it, bloggers: Can we start writing about the local issues, which we at least have a decent shot at covering?

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