Comments on: America’s worst race riot http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 10:58:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: raver http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62050 raver Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:45:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62050 Sorry, I gotta say something here. I posted a comment about the article from FT on Chapati Mystery that deals a bit more with the issues of the riot itself and our memory of it. But I just have to say make an addendum to Jake's comment. I also went to Booker T. and Carver and yeah it is pretty segregated, white kids and non-black non-white kids on one side, black kids on the other. I went to a magnet elementary school on the south side where all of the black kids in my classes were bussed in from the north side and yes it was much better integrated than the high school or middle school were. Nonetheless, I grew up hanging out in Greenwood and neighborhoods farther north in Tulsa against the desires of many of the adults around me (if you haven't figure it out yet, I'm a cracker). And while there was a clear socio-economic disparity between white and black folks in Tulsa, I would say there is equal fault to be found in the attitudes of the people. I have met lots of old black men who categorically hate whites and vice versa. If people can't have an open discussion about these issues, then they sure as hell can't fix the economic problems that go along with them. We're just now getting to the point where we can talk about the riot in a somewhat open manner. It would make more sense to think about this in a positive and constructive way than it would to just blame it on socio-economic disparity. And please, let's not call the Tulsa Race Riot "a bout of ethnic cleansing," it's much more complex than that. Sorry, I gotta say something here. I posted a comment about the article from FT on Chapati Mystery that deals a bit more with the issues of the riot itself and our memory of it. But I just have to say make an addendum to Jake’s comment. I also went to Booker T. and Carver and yeah it is pretty segregated, white kids and non-black non-white kids on one side, black kids on the other. I went to a magnet elementary school on the south side where all of the black kids in my classes were bussed in from the north side and yes it was much better integrated than the high school or middle school were. Nonetheless, I grew up hanging out in Greenwood and neighborhoods farther north in Tulsa against the desires of many of the adults around me (if you haven’t figure it out yet, I’m a cracker). And while there was a clear socio-economic disparity between white and black folks in Tulsa, I would say there is equal fault to be found in the attitudes of the people. I have met lots of old black men who categorically hate whites and vice versa. If people can’t have an open discussion about these issues, then they sure as hell can’t fix the economic problems that go along with them. We’re just now getting to the point where we can talk about the riot in a somewhat open manner. It would make more sense to think about this in a positive and constructive way than it would to just blame it on socio-economic disparity. And please, let’s not call the Tulsa Race Riot “a bout of ethnic cleansing,” it’s much more complex than that.

]]> By: Cleve Blakemore http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62046 Cleve Blakemore Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:41:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62046 I like that part, where it starts with armed blacks attacking unarmed white strangers, but supposedly ends up an irrational response to that very initiative. The fact is nowadays, when armed blacks fire on whites, white boys tend to drop to their knees and start fellating, sucking persistently right up to the moment the bullet pierces their forehead. That's what I call progress towards better understanding between the races. At least we'll never have to live in a world where whites actually return fire. You guys are an inspiration. I like that part, where it starts with armed blacks attacking unarmed white strangers, but supposedly ends up an irrational response to that very initiative. The fact is nowadays, when armed blacks fire on whites, white boys tend to drop to their knees and start fellating, sucking persistently right up to the moment the bullet pierces their forehead. That’s what I call progress towards better understanding between the races. At least we’ll never have to live in a world where whites actually return fire. You guys are an inspiration.

]]> By: Steve http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62045 Steve Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:43:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62045 <i>At the courthouse downtown where Rowland was being held, <b>a white mob squared off against armed black men</b>. Veterans of the first world war, they had come from Greenwood to stave off a lynching. Shots broke out {<b>fire came from both sides</b>) and mayhem ensued. Officers of the Tulsa police and county sheriff's department sided with the whites, hastily deputising hundreds and handing out weapons. National Guard troops were called in from neighbouring towns, arriving in trucks mounted with machine-guns. The guardsmen not only abetted the violence, but disarmed and rounded up hundreds of black defenders of Greenwood. As the whites fired at will, local biplanes circled above, scouting for blacks and - according to some reports - dropping incendiary explosives.</i> When I learned about it in Texas, it was pretty much a given that the planes had strafed people on the ground. Though the armed conflict started with armed Blacks and people overresponding to them. Many things converged there, but I'm sure that most places, if a large arab mob was armed with automatic weapons and opened fire in a confrontation with the police, would not respond with any violence or concern. At the courthouse downtown where Rowland was being held, a white mob squared off against armed black men. Veterans of the first world war, they had come from Greenwood to stave off a lynching. Shots broke out {fire came from both sides) and mayhem ensued. Officers of the Tulsa police and county sheriff’s department sided with the whites, hastily deputising hundreds and handing out weapons. National Guard troops were called in from neighbouring towns, arriving in trucks mounted with machine-guns. The guardsmen not only abetted the violence, but disarmed and rounded up hundreds of black defenders of Greenwood. As the whites fired at will, local biplanes circled above, scouting for blacks and – according to some reports – dropping incendiary explosives. When I learned about it in Texas, it was pretty much a given that the planes had strafed people on the ground. Though the armed conflict started with armed Blacks and people overresponding to them. Many things converged there, but I’m sure that most places, if a large arab mob was armed with automatic weapons and opened fire in a confrontation with the police, would not respond with any violence or concern.

]]> By: Why Riot When You Can Be Quiet? http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62044 Why Riot When You Can Be Quiet? Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:55:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62044 Why bother raising a big hubbub when you want to rid your country of undesirables when you can do it quietly and no one will care? Why do anything that could possibly end up on the news when you can do it away from the camera? Guantanamo, anyone? And the lead orchastrator? Donald Rumsfeld - here's an article about him: http://bloogeyman.blogspot.com/2005/02/when-you-play-gin-rummy-with-this.html And if anyone asks you questions you can just tell them to shove it! Why bother raising a big hubbub when you want to rid your country of undesirables when you can do it quietly and no one will care? Why do anything that could possibly end up on the news when you can do it away from the camera? Guantanamo, anyone? And the lead orchastrator? Donald Rumsfeld – here’s an article about him: http://bloogeyman.blogspot.com/2005/02/when-you-play-gin-rummy-with-this.html And if anyone asks you questions you can just tell them to shove it!

]]> By: Cleve Blakemore http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62049 Cleve Blakemore Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:28:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62049 I just wanted to add to this - when we discover that forcing racial proximity leads to rioting and social chaos, the single best cure we know of is to force even denser racial proximity, create more intolerance of intolerance and best of all, stoke that boiler until the bitch is whistling like a kettle. History teaches us that all ethnic disputes over territory are eventually settled through internal civil war, so we need to do everything in our power to create as much tension as we possibly can. The history books always seem to end for every civilization with the massive race war at the end - this proves that multiculturalism worked so well that historians concluded Francis Fukiyama style than no further history was needed. At least that's what I think it means, anyway. I just wanted to add to this – when we discover that forcing racial proximity leads to rioting and social chaos, the single best cure we know of is to force even denser racial proximity, create more intolerance of intolerance and best of all, stoke that boiler until the bitch is whistling like a kettle. History teaches us that all ethnic disputes over territory are eventually settled through internal civil war, so we need to do everything in our power to create as much tension as we possibly can. The history books always seem to end for every civilization with the massive race war at the end – this proves that multiculturalism worked so well that historians concluded Francis Fukiyama style than no further history was needed. At least that’s what I think it means, anyway.

]]> By: Cleve Blakemore http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62048 Cleve Blakemore Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:19:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62048 I've always had a deep personal conviction that point of a liberal education is to indoctrinate people into the korrect attitudes to hold about minorities - and then to give them the financial means to live as far the hell away as possible upon graduation. There's nothing more morally offensive to me than the notion of whites trying to live somewhere that isn't knee deep in discarded crack pipes, malt liquor cans and spent condoms. It's that kind of elitism and undeserved privilege that heroes like Noel Ignatius is fighting against by making wise use of his own undeserved academic title and phoney elitist credentials. I for one to forward to a day when all the races will be evenly interbred into a nice even tan and then processed for use as a food source like soylent green to feed the starving third world hordes. I don't think any of us want to go back to the unmitigated horror of American towns like Pleasantville, intact nuclear families, safe communities, clean streets, absymally low crime, zero unemployment and even worse, the ability to speak in complete sentences. I'd hate to think about a world where we'd watch more than fifteen minutes of popular culture without somebody grabbing their testicles and squealing about busting a cap. I for one thank god we don't live in that 1950's saccharine hellhole any longer. Now, if you'll forgive me, I have to dive behind the couch while somebody does a driveby in my neighborhood. Knowwhayimsayinhomes? I’ve always had a deep personal conviction that point of a liberal education is to indoctrinate people into the korrect attitudes to hold about minorities – and then to give them the financial means to live as far the hell away as possible upon graduation. There’s nothing more morally offensive to me than the notion of whites trying to live somewhere that isn’t knee deep in discarded crack pipes, malt liquor cans and spent condoms. It’s that kind of elitism and undeserved privilege that heroes like Noel Ignatius is fighting against by making wise use of his own undeserved academic title and phoney elitist credentials. I for one to forward to a day when all the races will be evenly interbred into a nice even tan and then processed for use as a food source like soylent green to feed the starving third world hordes. I don’t think any of us want to go back to the unmitigated horror of American towns like Pleasantville, intact nuclear families, safe communities, clean streets, absymally low crime, zero unemployment and even worse, the ability to speak in complete sentences. I’d hate to think about a world where we’d watch more than fifteen minutes of popular culture without somebody grabbing their testicles and squealing about busting a cap. I for one thank god we don’t live in that 1950’s saccharine hellhole any longer. Now, if you’ll forgive me, I have to dive behind the couch while somebody does a driveby in my neighborhood. Knowwhayimsayinhomes?

]]> By: james http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62047 james Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:47:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62047 US Students take state history, World history (as pertaining to the US), American History, and US Government. Thats quite a bit of general knowledge to cover. The nations past wrong doing is usually covered when addressing the greater failings: Slavery and the slaughter of the indians. US Students take state history, World history (as pertaining to the US), American History, and US Government. Thats quite a bit of general knowledge to cover. The nations past wrong doing is usually covered when addressing the greater failings: Slavery and the slaughter of the indians.

]]> By: Cryptic Ned http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62043 Cryptic Ned Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:49:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62043 <i>Derek, I can’t help but believe your comments begin from a bias against the US, and continue in ignorance. “while the Tulsa riots were just swept under the carpet in a typically American act of denial.” Every student in Oklahoma is required to take Oklahoma State History. The curriculum for this class spends a decent amount of time covering the Tulsa Race Riot, its causes and aftermath.</i> How about non-Oklahoma students? I think this is a pretty important historical event. I'm 22 and never heard of this before. It was not in my history books. I don't think that is evidence of any sort of bias though. We certainly spent a lot of time on civil rights issues, it's just that everything from 1870 to Brown v. Board of Education was covered by the two words "Jim Crow". "Do you know what phrase they used to describe the anti-black laws passed after Reconstruction?" "Jim Crow." "That is correct. And now, let's see how Jay Gould and Cornelius Vanderbilt's relationship is going." History books basically don't contain any events that involved nobody of national importance. Derek, I can’t help but believe your comments begin from a bias against the US, and continue in ignorance. “while the Tulsa riots were just swept under the carpet in a typically American act of denial.” Every student in Oklahoma is required to take Oklahoma State History. The curriculum for this class spends a decent amount of time covering the Tulsa Race Riot, its causes and aftermath. How about non-Oklahoma students? I think this is a pretty important historical event. I’m 22 and never heard of this before. It was not in my history books. I don’t think that is evidence of any sort of bias though. We certainly spent a lot of time on civil rights issues, it’s just that everything from 1870 to Brown v. Board of Education was covered by the two words “Jim Crow”. “Do you know what phrase they used to describe the anti-black laws passed after Reconstruction?” “Jim Crow.” “That is correct. And now, let’s see how Jay Gould and Cornelius Vanderbilt’s relationship is going.” History books basically don’t contain any events that involved nobody of national importance.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62042 jet Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:45:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62042 Derek, I can't help but believe your comments begin from a bias against the US, and continue in ignorance. "while the Tulsa riots were just swept under the carpet in a typically American act of denial." Every student in Oklahoma is required to take Oklahoma State History. The curriculum for this class spends a decent amount of time covering the Tulsa Race Riot, its causes and aftermath. Derek, I can’t help but believe your comments begin from a bias against the US, and continue in ignorance. “while the Tulsa riots were just swept under the carpet in a typically American act of denial.” Every student in Oklahoma is required to take Oklahoma State History. The curriculum for this class spends a decent amount of time covering the Tulsa Race Riot, its causes and aftermath.

]]> By: Sally http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62041 Sally Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:58:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62041 Well, 1916 was the last century, but it's not really the same thing. Probably a better Irish analogy would be <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/violence_derry.shtml">anti-Catholic violence in Belfast in 1920.</a> I don't think nearly as many people were killed, but more than 10,000 Catholics were driven from their jobs. I'm not going to join the pro-American vs. anti-American argument here, so I will only point out that this was part of a larger pattern of post-World War I racial violence. It was the worst example, but in 1919 there were more than 25 race riots. The worst were in Chicago and Arkansas. After World War I, African Americans thought they'd proved their loyalty by fulfiling the obligations of citizenship and that they ought to get the rights that went along with that. That was W.E.B. DuBois's rationale for urging black men to enlist. And white mobs were desperate to nip that in the bud. Any claims by black people to full citizenship could start a riot. (In this case it was the claim to have the right to a fair trial, rather than summary racial justice.) Just the sight of a black man in a U.S. military uniform was sometimes enough to provoke violence. Well, 1916 was the last century, but it’s not really the same thing. Probably a better Irish analogy would be anti-Catholic violence in Belfast in 1920. I don’t think nearly as many people were killed, but more than 10,000 Catholics were driven from their jobs. I’m not going to join the pro-American vs. anti-American argument here, so I will only point out that this was part of a larger pattern of post-World War I racial violence. It was the worst example, but in 1919 there were more than 25 race riots. The worst were in Chicago and Arkansas. After World War I, African Americans thought they’d proved their loyalty by fulfiling the obligations of citizenship and that they ought to get the rights that went along with that. That was W.E.B. DuBois’s rationale for urging black men to enlist. And white mobs were desperate to nip that in the bud. Any claims by black people to full citizenship could start a riot. (In this case it was the claim to have the right to a fair trial, rather than summary racial justice.) Just the sight of a black man in a U.S. military uniform was sometimes enough to provoke violence.

]]> By: H.T. http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62040 H.T. Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:55:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62040 <i>Non-Americans who take this as an opportunity for generalized America-bashing</i> <i>Needless to say</i>, Chris, we certainly knew where to come, eh? Non-Americans who take this as an opportunity for generalized America-bashing Needless to say, Chris, we certainly knew where to come, eh?

]]> By: Kevin Donoghue http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62039 Kevin Donoghue Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:50:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62039 I don't want to encourage the sort of comment that Chris Bertram refers to, but is there any basis for movie guy's claim about "the way the British used battleships to shell cities in Ireland in the last century...."? Apart from the use of a gunboat during the 1916 insurrection I don't know of anything remotely fitting this. (There is a very old joke about a cruiser being ordered to shell Galway.) I don’t want to encourage the sort of comment that Chris Bertram refers to, but is there any basis for movie guy’s claim about “the way the British used battleships to shell cities in Ireland in the last century….”? Apart from the use of a gunboat during the 1916 insurrection I don’t know of anything remotely fitting this. (There is a very old joke about a cruiser being ordered to shell Galway.)

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62038 Chris Bertram Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:10:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62038 Needless to say, I posted this because I thought it was an interesting article. Non-Americans who take this as an opportunity for generalized America-bashing - grow up. Oversensitive Americans who feel the need to point out that other nations have had bad moments - likewise. (And if anyone whose commented above think I'm thinking of them in particular, they they are probably suffering from advanced Carly Simon syndrome.) Needless to say, I posted this because I thought it was an interesting article. Non-Americans who take this as an opportunity for generalized America-bashing – grow up. Oversensitive Americans who feel the need to point out that other nations have had bad moments – likewise. (And if anyone whose commented above think I’m thinking of them in particular, they they are probably suffering from advanced Carly Simon syndrome.)

]]> By: derek http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62037 derek Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:30:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62037 <p>Posted by Doug: <br /><em>Idly, I wonder what would count as the UK’s worst race riot? </em> When  I read about the Tulsa riots, it immediately reminded me of <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/britain/geo_gordon_riots.shtmlBritish%20soccer%20games%20to%20mind.%20I’ve%20seen%20those%20thugs%20in%20action.%20Posted%20by%20Movie%20Guy">The Gordon Riots</a> in 1780, where the rioters were angry about legislation to reduce discrimination against Catholics.  700 people were killed and 12,000 troops had to be deployed to end the fighting.  The contrast that struck me is that whereas this event is taught in British classrooms (as far as History is taught at all, these days), while the Tulsa riots were just swept under the carpet in a typically American act of denial.  And on that note: Posted by Movie Guy: <em>British soccer games to mind. I’ve seen those thugs in action.</em> Get over yourself.  The reason Americans have "seen" these things is because the UK media reports them as the disgraceful events they are.  You know nothing of the more frequent and more violent basketball riots in your own country (google on "basketball riot" to see what I mean).  US basketball riots are bigger, nastier, more likely to involve serious weaponry, and more likely to involve serious police response.  US basketball riots involve thousands of rioters, but they don't get beyond local news in the USA, so you have to use Google to find out about them; but you only have to turn on the TV to hear about "Briddish soccer riots".  Here are some URLs I gathered for the year 2000 a few years ago when this subject came up.  <a href="http://www.lineone.net/express/00/06/21/news/n2320-d.html">http://www.lineone.net/express/00/06/21/news/n2320-d.html</a> <a href="http://www.sports.findlaw.com/basketball/tarnished/marchbadness/riots/">http://www.sports.findlaw.com/basketball/tarnished/marchbadness/riots/</a> <a href="http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/riots/17awhat.html">http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/riots/17awhat.html</a> <a href="http://www.freep.com/news/mich/qspfans28.htm">http://www.freep.com/news/mich/qspfans28.htm</a> <a href="http://www.purdueexponent.org/2000/03/24/campus/riots.html">http://www.purdueexponent.org/2000/03/24/campus/riots.html</a> <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/sports/DailyNews/purduer_riot000324.html">http://abcnews.go.com/sections/sports/DailyNews/purduer_riot000324.html</a> <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/20/violence6_20.a.tm/">http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/20/violence6_20.a.tm/</a> That's the result of a quick search of one year's highlights, in response to an American claiming there was no American sports violence.  Even today, Americans do the equivalent of denying the Tulsa riots every year.  </p>

Posted by Doug:
Idly, I wonder what would count as the UK’s worst race riot? When  I read about the Tulsa riots, it immediately reminded me of The Gordon Riots in 1780, where the rioters were angry about legislation to reduce discrimination against Catholics.  700 people were killed and 12,000 troops had to be deployed to end the fighting.  The contrast that struck me is that whereas this event is taught in British classrooms (as far as History is taught at all, these days), while the Tulsa riots were just swept under the carpet in a typically American act of denial.  And on that note: Posted by Movie Guy: British soccer games to mind. I’ve seen those thugs in action. Get over yourself.  The reason Americans have “seen” these things is because the UK media reports them as the disgraceful events they are.  You know nothing of the more frequent and more violent basketball riots in your own country (google on “basketball riot” to see what I mean).  US basketball riots are bigger, nastier, more likely to involve serious weaponry, and more likely to involve serious police response.  US basketball riots involve thousands of rioters, but they don’t get beyond local news in the USA, so you have to use Google to find out about them; but you only have to turn on the TV to hear about “Briddish soccer riots”.  Here are some URLs I gathered for the year 2000 a few years ago when this subject came up.  http://www.lineone.net/express/00/06/21/news/n2320-d.html http://www.sports.findlaw.com/basketball/tarnished/marchbadness/riots/ http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/riots/17awhat.html http://www.freep.com/news/mich/qspfans28.htm http://www.purdueexponent.org/2000/03/24/campus/riots.html http://abcnews.go.com/sections/sports/DailyNews/purduer_riot000324.html http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/20/violence6_20.a.tm/ That’s the result of a quick search of one year’s highlights, in response to an American claiming there was no American sports violence.  Even today, Americans do the equivalent of denying the Tulsa riots every year. 

]]> By: Yusuf Smith http://crookedtimber.org/2005/02/19/americas-worst-race-riot/comment-page-1/#comment-62036 Yusuf Smith Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:29:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/wp/?p=2896#comment-62036 <em>As for FT running the historical story and dredging up ugly American events, perhaps one should not overlook current events in the UK and elsewhere in Europe by British citizens. British soccer games to mind. I’ve seen those thugs in action.</em> And when was the last time British football hooligans launched armed attacks on definite racial targets in a city, and killed hundreds? Britain's had its share of racial problems, but mob riots by whites against blacks are not among them. As for FT running the historical story and dredging up ugly American events, perhaps one should not overlook current events in the UK and elsewhere in Europe by British citizens. British soccer games to mind. I’ve seen those thugs in action. And when was the last time British football hooligans launched armed attacks on definite racial targets in a city, and killed hundreds? Britain’s had its share of racial problems, but mob riots by whites against blacks are not among them.

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