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	<title>Comments on: Get the Shots Already</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Procrastinator</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62845</link>
		<dc:creator>Procrastinator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62845</guid>
		<description>This is my first post here, so let&#039;s hope it&#039;s protocol.

I am deeply concerned that there was someting in an earlier *method of delivery* which increased the likelihood of autism, but A: the increase in autism was there before the single jag and B: the non-scientific way in which Wakefield et al approached the matter was wrong, wrong, wrong.  First, it was claimed the jag was the direct cause of autism - no evidence.  Then that it somehow affected the GI lining or blood-brain barrier, allowing other infections to pass through - nope.  Now it&#039;s this method of delivery which is being blamed - maybe.  Maybe there was another constituent which posed an increased risk, but your kak-handed approach has done great damage.  Also to blame is the bombastic attitude of some areas of the pro-lobby to doubt and criticism.  As much of a disaster as an outbreak of rabies in a guide-dog&#039;s home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is my first post here, so let&#8217;s hope it&#8217;s protocol.</p>

	<p>I am deeply concerned that there was someting in an earlier <strong>method of delivery</strong> which increased the likelihood of autism, but A: the increase in autism was there before the single jag and B: the non-scientific way in which Wakefield et al approached the matter was wrong, wrong, wrong.  First, it was claimed the jag was the direct cause of autism &#8211; no evidence.  Then that it somehow affected the GI lining or blood-brain barrier, allowing other infections to pass through &#8211; nope.  Now it&#8217;s this method of delivery which is being blamed &#8211; maybe.  Maybe there was another constituent which posed an increased risk, but your kak-handed approach has done great damage.  Also to blame is the bombastic attitude of some areas of the pro-lobby to doubt and criticism.  As much of a disaster as an outbreak of rabies in a guide-dog&#8217;s home.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62846</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62846</guid>
		<description>Of course the really scary thing is that Wakefield never demonstrated an association of autism with the MMR in the first place - he just claimed there was one.  But that statement has now lead to this whole brouhaha, and a generation of parents convinced of an association through some kind of cultural osmosis.

The mistake of the scientific and medical establishment was to underestimate the grip this meme had on the general populace - they just couldn&#039;t understand why people would accept a claim without any basis and reject all the evidence to the contrary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Of course the really scary thing is that Wakefield never demonstrated an association of autism with the <span class="caps">MMR</span> in the first place &#8211; he just claimed there was one.  But that statement has now lead to this whole brouhaha, and a generation of parents convinced of an association through some kind of cultural osmosis.</p>

	<p>The mistake of the scientific and medical establishment was to underestimate the grip this meme had on the general populace &#8211; they just couldn&#8217;t understand why people would accept a claim without any basis and reject all the evidence to the contrary.</p>
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		<title>By: Procrastinator</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62847</link>
		<dc:creator>Procrastinator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62847</guid>
		<description>Plus, it was based on the examination of t...w...e...l...v...e... children and has never been replicated.  Ten et al in Wakefield et al have withdrawn their support ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3530551.stm ) in the face of, oh, lack of supporting evidence and stuff like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Plus, it was based on the examination of t&#8230;w&#8230;e&#8230;l&#8230;v&#8230;e&#8230; children and has never been replicated.  Ten et al in Wakefield et al have withdrawn their support ( <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3530551.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3530551.stm</a> ) in the face of, oh, lack of supporting evidence and stuff like that.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62848</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62848</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m gonna have to do a front page post about this some time soon.  Studies like this can&#039;t, possibly, prove that MMR doesn&#039;t cause autism &lt;i&gt;in the small number of cases where live measles is found in the gut&lt;/i&gt;.  This is because these cases are too rare to be picked up by any reasonable epidemiological studies.  (For example, if I went mad and decided to bump off every 1000th CT reader, I could probably get away with it if the only means of investigation you had was to look at statistical measures of association).  

What this study is picking up is that any vaccine effect is swamped by the trend; but we could have guessed that anyway from the fact that Wakefield was only able to trick up a dozen or so cases.  It&#039;s similar to the sample size issues that we covered &lt;i&gt;ad nauseam&lt;/i&gt; in the Lancet/Iraq debate.  

What appears to me to have happened is that peoples&#039; bullshit-detectors gave off a false positive.  Looked at objectively, the scramble of the scientific establishment to crush Wakefield was outright disgusting behaviour (and this behaviour cannot at all be vindicated by Wakefield&#039;s own later sins).  Furthermore, we were treated for years to the sight of medical/government spokesmen turning up on television claiming that epidemiological evidence had &quot;conclusively proved&quot; things that epidemiology could not possibly have conclusively proved, because of the nature of the beast (think how long it took to prove that cigarettes cause lung cancer!).  When a man is saying something he knows to be untrue (even if he is saying it in service of a larger but more complicated truth), he tends to look shifty, and it is my opinion as a professional judge of character that it was this nonverbal communication that the public reacted to.

However, &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; the incidence of measles in gut plus autism is very rare, while the incidence of rubella and measles is only rare, the risk ratios favour vaccination.  I swear that if we had had a commonsensical debate about risk ratios, rather than trying to pretend that science had conclusively established that the ratio was zero to one and shouting down anyone who argued for a higher number, this whole fiasco need not have happened.

My personal assessment of the underlying science is that this is not a fear made up out of nothing; there are a (practically rather than statistically) significant number of autistic kids who have live measles in their gut and nobody appears to have a sensible explanation of how it got there.  That is the sort of thing that medical science ought to be taking a look at; anyone who says that it shouldn&#039;t &quot;to avoid sending out the wrong message&quot; has stopped being a scientist and become a politician.

On the other hand, Wakefield has disappeared up his own arse several years ago, and persists in making statements about vaccination which go miles beyond his evidence, and which often say things which don&#039;t make sense to me given the risk ratios.  I&#039;m getting my kid done next week.

(Some may find it interesting that I was vaccinated against measles the old-fashioned way; I was sent round to play with a kid who had caught it so as to &quot;get it out of the way&quot; and not take the risk of catching it at the same time as another illness.  This was pretty common practice when I was growing up, and probably also makes sense on a risk ratio basis given the very small likelihood of very nasty outcomes).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m gonna have to do a front page post about this some time soon.  Studies like this can&#8217;t, possibly, prove that <span class="caps">MMR</span> doesn&#8217;t cause autism <i>in the small number of cases where live measles is found in the gut</i>.  This is because these cases are too rare to be picked up by any reasonable epidemiological studies.  (For example, if I went mad and decided to bump off every 1000th CT reader, I could probably get away with it if the only means of investigation you had was to look at statistical measures of association).</p>

	<p>What this study is picking up is that any vaccine effect is swamped by the trend; but we could have guessed that anyway from the fact that Wakefield was only able to trick up a dozen or so cases.  It&#8217;s similar to the sample size issues that we covered <i>ad nauseam</i> in the Lancet/Iraq debate.</p>

	<p>What appears to me to have happened is that peoples&#8217; bullshit-detectors gave off a false positive.  Looked at objectively, the scramble of the scientific establishment to crush Wakefield was outright disgusting behaviour (and this behaviour cannot at all be vindicated by Wakefield&#8217;s own later sins).  Furthermore, we were treated for years to the sight of medical/government spokesmen turning up on television claiming that epidemiological evidence had &#8220;conclusively proved&#8221; things that epidemiology could not possibly have conclusively proved, because of the nature of the beast (think how long it took to prove that cigarettes cause lung cancer!).  When a man is saying something he knows to be untrue (even if he is saying it in service of a larger but more complicated truth), he tends to look shifty, and it is my opinion as a professional judge of character that it was this nonverbal communication that the public reacted to.</p>

	<p>However, <i>because</i> the incidence of measles in gut plus autism is very rare, while the incidence of rubella and measles is only rare, the risk ratios favour vaccination.  I swear that if we had had a commonsensical debate about risk ratios, rather than trying to pretend that science had conclusively established that the ratio was zero to one and shouting down anyone who argued for a higher number, this whole fiasco need not have happened.</p>

	<p>My personal assessment of the underlying science is that this is not a fear made up out of nothing; there are a (practically rather than statistically) significant number of autistic kids who have live measles in their gut and nobody appears to have a sensible explanation of how it got there.  That is the sort of thing that medical science ought to be taking a look at; anyone who says that it shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;to avoid sending out the wrong message&#8221; has stopped being a scientist and become a politician.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, Wakefield has disappeared up his own arse several years ago, and persists in making statements about vaccination which go miles beyond his evidence, and which often say things which don&#8217;t make sense to me given the risk ratios.  I&#8217;m getting my kid done next week.</p>

	<p>(Some may find it interesting that I was vaccinated against measles the old-fashioned way; I was sent round to play with a kid who had caught it so as to &#8220;get it out of the way&#8221; and not take the risk of catching it at the same time as another illness.  This was pretty common practice when I was growing up, and probably also makes sense on a risk ratio basis given the very small likelihood of very nasty outcomes).</p>
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		<title>By: Thinking Nurse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62849</link>
		<dc:creator>Thinking Nurse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62849</guid>
		<description>I am a student learning disability nurse, and have worked with people with learning disabilities (including several with autism).

Because people cannot understand how their child came to be autistic, there is a very strong impulsion for them to grasp any explanation they are offered. I think MMR fitted that need.

Politicians like Tony Blair did not help this by failing to show that they were getting their own kids immunised, while telling everyone else it was safe.

When the public suspects they are being lied to by politicians, they are more often than not correct, sadly in this case, the politicians were telling the truth, but behaving as if they did not believe it themselves!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I am a student learning disability nurse, and have worked with people with learning disabilities (including several with autism).</p>

	<p>Because people cannot understand how their child came to be autistic, there is a very strong impulsion for them to grasp any explanation they are offered. I think <span class="caps">MMR</span> fitted that need.</p>

	<p>Politicians like Tony Blair did not help this by failing to show that they were getting their own kids immunised, while telling everyone else it was safe.</p>

	<p>When the public suspects they are being lied to by politicians, they are more often than not correct, sadly in this case, the politicians were telling the truth, but behaving as if they did not believe it themselves!</p>
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		<title>By: Cruella</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62850</link>
		<dc:creator>Cruella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62850</guid>
		<description>Even the original reports which suggested there might be a link between MMR and autism did not advocate missing out on the jabs altogether, simply having them seperately rather than combined.  personally i think that&#039;s probably a sensible idea anyway when you think about whats in those jabs anyway.  the government of course has reacted by introducing a 5-in-1 jab now to replace the 3-in-1.  certainly no-one should fail to immunise their kids though.  cru</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Even the original reports which suggested there might be a link between <span class="caps">MMR</span> and autism did not advocate missing out on the jabs altogether, simply having them seperately rather than combined.  personally i think that&#8217;s probably a sensible idea anyway when you think about whats in those jabs anyway.  the government of course has reacted by introducing a 5-in-1 jab now to replace the 3-in-1.  certainly no-one should fail to immunise their kids though.  cru</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62851</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62851</guid>
		<description>Separate jabs are a poor idea in health outcome terms - they&#039;ve been trialled and licensed for use on their own, rather than in combination with the other two jabs over a relatively short period of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Separate jabs are a poor idea in health outcome terms &#8211; they&#8217;ve been trialled and licensed for use on their own, rather than in combination with the other two jabs over a relatively short period of time.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62852</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62852</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t you read &lt;i&gt;Silent Spring&lt;/i&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Didn&#8217;t you read <i>Silent Spring</i>?</p>
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		<title>By: P.T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62853</link>
		<dc:creator>P.T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62853</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That is the sort of thing that... science ought to be taking a look at; anyone who says that it shouldn’t “to avoid sending out the wrong message” has stopped being a scientist and become a politician.&lt;/i&gt;

Advice on scientific method from Daniel (&quot;******* is a prick&quot;, &quot;better start  mugging up on Feynman-Kac derivatives&quot;) Davies? That&#039;s rich!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That is the sort of thing that&#8230; science ought to be taking a look at; anyone who says that it shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;to avoid sending out the wrong message&#8221; has stopped being a scientist and become a politician.</i></p>

	<p>Advice on scientific method from Daniel (&#8220;******* is a prick&#8221;, &#8220;better start  mugging up on Feynman-Kac derivatives&#8221;) Davies? That&#8217;s rich!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62854</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62854</guid>
		<description>Dsquared, I also can&#039;t prove that invisible pink elephants didn&#039;t force you to type your comment. Science doesn&#039;t work by proving negatives. The fact is, there was never credible evidence of the autism link, and subsequent examination of Wakefield&#039;s data (his own unscientific demeanor not helpful either, as you admit) has only decreased their credibility. (Also there are any number of irrelevant &quot;associations&quot; between this and that that can, given the right set of calculations, be shown as &quot;statistically significant&quot;, something I feel 100% sure you&#039;re very well aware of.) If the valid criticism of Wakefield (again, greatly strengthened by his own idiocy) is your idea of &quot;crushing&quot; someone, I shudder to think of the state of intellectual hygiene in your own field. But the difference is that in public health, bogus claims like the vaccine / autism link _cost lives_, in this case by discouraging critical vaccinations. I hope you haven&#039;t lost sight of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dsquared, I also can&#8217;t prove that invisible pink elephants didn&#8217;t force you to type your comment. Science doesn&#8217;t work by proving negatives. The fact is, there was never credible evidence of the autism link, and subsequent examination of Wakefield&#8217;s data (his own unscientific demeanor not helpful either, as you admit) has only decreased their credibility. (Also there are any number of irrelevant &#8220;associations&#8221; between this and that that can, given the right set of calculations, be shown as &#8220;statistically significant&#8221;, something I feel 100% sure you&#8217;re very well aware of.) If the valid criticism of Wakefield (again, greatly strengthened by his own idiocy) is your idea of &#8220;crushing&#8221; someone, I shudder to think of the state of intellectual hygiene in your own field. But the difference is that in public health, bogus claims like the vaccine / autism link <em>cost lives</em>, in this case by discouraging critical vaccinations. I hope you haven&#8217;t lost sight of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Cranky Observer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62855</link>
		<dc:creator>Cranky Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62855</guid>
		<description>In most &quot;advice for the new bride&quot; books, magazines, and articles, it suggests that as part of wedding planning a women have a blood test for measles antibodies and, if low, have an MMR booster.  That is what we did and it saved us a lot of grief when a neighbor did in fact get the measles during our 1st pregnency.

Cranky</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In most &#8220;advice for the new bride&#8221; books, magazines, and articles, it suggests that as part of wedding planning a women have a blood test for measles antibodies and, if low, have an <span class="caps">MMR</span> booster.  That is what we did and it saved us a lot of grief when a neighbor did in fact get the measles during our 1st pregnency.</p>

	<p>Cranky</p>
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		<title>By: Ancarett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62856</link>
		<dc:creator>Ancarett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62856</guid>
		<description>I have to admit, as a parent of an autistic daughter, that the first time I read this suggestion of a MMR/autism connection, I was outraged and horrified.

Those feelings remained, for different reasons, when I read the scientific responses to this claim. It burns me that not only are people refusing important vaccinations (FYI both my children had the MMR jab as well as all other recommended inoculations) but that this type of media-grandstanding is diverting resources from more worthy studies.

Autism is inexplicably on the rise -- we need to know why, but it seems as if the answer is going to be much more complex than proposed. Already there&#039;s the credible argument that part of this rise is the increased recognition of the problem. But I&#039;m not even so involved in this debate anymore. I prefer to devote my time to assisting my daughter to become as &quot;high functioning&quot; as she can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have to admit, as a parent of an autistic daughter, that the first time I read this suggestion of a <span class="caps">MMR</span>/autism connection, I was outraged and horrified.</p>

	<p>Those feelings remained, for different reasons, when I read the scientific responses to this claim. It burns me that not only are people refusing important vaccinations (FYI both my children had the <span class="caps">MMR</span> jab as well as all other recommended inoculations) but that this type of media-grandstanding is diverting resources from more worthy studies.</p>

	<p>Autism is inexplicably on the rise&#8212;we need to know why, but it seems as if the answer is going to be much more complex than proposed. Already there&#8217;s the credible argument that part of this rise is the increased recognition of the problem. But I&#8217;m not even so involved in this debate anymore. I prefer to devote my time to assisting my daughter to become as &#8220;high functioning&#8221; as she can.</p>
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		<title>By: Chance the Gardener</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62857</link>
		<dc:creator>Chance the Gardener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62857</guid>
		<description>If you had an autistic child, like my wife and I do, perhaps you would not be so flippant.

If you were searching for answers for something that no one knows the source of, and there is no real cure for, and you want to prevent it from happening to others, perhaps you would be reaching for straws, sure. 

And if there were mixed messages being bandied about for YEARS, do not be so surprised when people come up with not-so-logical explanations for events, especially when the media has been whacking this around for years now. Fine, have issues with people that don&#039;t get their kids vaccinated. Great. But don&#039;t discount the reasons behind the fear as though there is nothing there. 

You want to tell me thar MMR is not the answer to the question? Fine, you are right, but now, there still remains the question, what causes autism? Why is there an increase? Do you know? Do you have the answer I am looking for? No, you don&#039;t.

Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me, and people like me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you had an autistic child, like my wife and I do, perhaps you would not be so flippant.</p>

	<p>If you were searching for answers for something that no one knows the source of, and there is no real cure for, and you want to prevent it from happening to others, perhaps you would be reaching for straws, sure.</p>

	<p>And if there were mixed messages being bandied about for <span class="caps">YEARS</span>, do not be so surprised when people come up with not-so-logical explanations for events, especially when the media has been whacking this around for years now. Fine, have issues with people that don&#8217;t get their kids vaccinated. Great. But don&#8217;t discount the reasons behind the fear as though there is nothing there.</p>

	<p>You want to tell me thar <span class="caps">MMR</span> is not the answer to the question? Fine, you are right, but now, there still remains the question, what causes autism? Why is there an increase? Do you know? Do you have the answer I am looking for? No, you don&#8217;t.</p>

	<p>Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me, and people like me.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62858</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62858</guid>
		<description>Dsquared, you are right that the epidemiology can&#039;t prove that a very small subset of autism is due to the MMR, but it does suggest that Wakefield&#039;s original advice to avoid the jab was flawed.  It also counters the widely made claim by anti-MMR campaigners that the rise in autism is due to MMR.  Additionally, while you can&#039;t prove a negative, Wakefield&#039;s original paper did not provide evidence that MMR caused autism, it was simply an aggregation of case reports, 12 subjects with autism associated with inflammation of the bowel.

&quot;there are a (practically rather than statistically) significant number of autistic kids who have live measles in their gut and nobody appears to have a sensible explanation of how it got there&quot;

I&#039;m not sure where that comes from, I thought they were mostly studying autism plus bowel disorder patients and finding that.  I could posit that children with a pervasive developmental disorder like autism might be more susceptible to MMR induced bowel disorder.  I have no evidence, but then you have no evidence that MMR causes autism with bowel disorders.

On the other hand, it does seem like autism + bowel disorders is a real phenomenon, and that Wakefield helped to bring the attention of the medical community to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dsquared, you are right that the epidemiology can&#8217;t prove that a very small subset of autism is due to the <span class="caps">MMR</span>, but it does suggest that Wakefield&#8217;s original advice to avoid the jab was flawed.  It also counters the widely made claim by anti-MMR campaigners that the rise in autism is due to <span class="caps">MMR</span>.  Additionally, while you can&#8217;t prove a negative, Wakefield&#8217;s original paper did not provide evidence that <span class="caps">MMR</span> caused autism, it was simply an aggregation of case reports, 12 subjects with autism associated with inflammation of the bowel.</p>

	<p>&#8220;there are a (practically rather than statistically) significant number of autistic kids who have live measles in their gut and nobody appears to have a sensible explanation of how it got there&#8221;</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure where that comes from, I thought they were mostly studying autism plus bowel disorder patients and finding that.  I could posit that children with a pervasive developmental disorder like autism might be more susceptible to <span class="caps">MMR</span> induced bowel disorder.  I have no evidence, but then you have no evidence that <span class="caps">MMR</span> causes autism with bowel disorders.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, it does seem like autism + bowel disorders is a real phenomenon, and that Wakefield helped to bring the attention of the medical community to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/comment-page-1/#comment-62859</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/get-the-shots-already/#comment-62859</guid>
		<description>The point here vis-a-vis Daniel&#039;s comment is an observed rise in cases of autism over the last forty years. That requires a hypothesis of some kind on purely scientific or medical grounds. It&#039;s possible that the rise is merely an artifact of improved reporting or of improved or changed diagnostics. But against that, even the supposition that there is a tiny fractional set of autism cases related to live measles in the gut is inadequate and unimportant: it&#039;s non-explanatory as far as the overall trend goes and therefore immaterial to consider. It&#039;s only important if it suggests some broader problem with the MMR vaccine, and that&#039;s the hypothesis that has been conclusively debunked. To take any interest whatsoever in the possibility that in a miniscule fraction of cases live measles in the gut is implicated is at this point a kind of weird diversionary response to the overall question.

I do think that it&#039;s worth going back and looking at why the hypothesis of a link to MMR caught fire with the parents of autistic children. Thinking Nurse, Ancarrett and Chance the Gardener all offer some important thoughts about that. Autism is one of the worst nightmares a dedicated parent can face: a child that you know and love who seems utterly normal, even unusually gifted, who suddenly becomes almost impermeable to normal human sociality and communication, and for reasons that no one can really explain. Around autism swirls a ferocious host of competing theories, some of which demand that a parent essentially buy and commit to them in order to begin some therapeutic intervention at a sufficiently early moment. Some of those hypotheses implicate the home environment and parental styles, others implicate the global environment, others implicate genes, and so on. 

Every parent is haunted first by the possibility of their child being injured, getting seriously ill or dying; worse still is the nightmare feeling of responsibility for those events. It&#039;s bad enough to think of your child being disabled or killed, it&#039;s worse to feel that someone, some way, you might have been able to do something about it before it happened. 

A hypothesis about autism that posits a clear, concrete cause that a conscientious parent could avoid  is almost irresistable for parents of autistic children and parents who fear autism for their very young children. Which is all the more reason that anybody who wants to put a hypothesis like that up for testing had better be ultra-responsible: this is like offering water to refugees in the desert.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The point here vis-a-vis Daniel&#8217;s comment is an observed rise in cases of autism over the last forty years. That requires a hypothesis of some kind on purely scientific or medical grounds. It&#8217;s possible that the rise is merely an artifact of improved reporting or of improved or changed diagnostics. But against that, even the supposition that there is a tiny fractional set of autism cases related to live measles in the gut is inadequate and unimportant: it&#8217;s non-explanatory as far as the overall trend goes and therefore immaterial to consider. It&#8217;s only important if it suggests some broader problem with the <span class="caps">MMR</span> vaccine, and that&#8217;s the hypothesis that has been conclusively debunked. To take any interest whatsoever in the possibility that in a miniscule fraction of cases live measles in the gut is implicated is at this point a kind of weird diversionary response to the overall question.</p>

	<p>I do think that it&#8217;s worth going back and looking at why the hypothesis of a link to <span class="caps">MMR</span> caught fire with the parents of autistic children. Thinking Nurse, Ancarrett and Chance the Gardener all offer some important thoughts about that. Autism is one of the worst nightmares a dedicated parent can face: a child that you know and love who seems utterly normal, even unusually gifted, who suddenly becomes almost impermeable to normal human sociality and communication, and for reasons that no one can really explain. Around autism swirls a ferocious host of competing theories, some of which demand that a parent essentially buy and commit to them in order to begin some therapeutic intervention at a sufficiently early moment. Some of those hypotheses implicate the home environment and parental styles, others implicate the global environment, others implicate genes, and so on.</p>

	<p>Every parent is haunted first by the possibility of their child being injured, getting seriously ill or dying; worse still is the nightmare feeling of responsibility for those events. It&#8217;s bad enough to think of your child being disabled or killed, it&#8217;s worse to feel that someone, some way, you might have been able to do something about it before it happened.</p>

	<p>A hypothesis about autism that posits a clear, concrete cause that a conscientious parent could avoid  is almost irresistable for parents of autistic children and parents who fear autism for their very young children. Which is all the more reason that anybody who wants to put a hypothesis like that up for testing had better be ultra-responsible: this is like offering water to refugees in the desert.</p>
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