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	<title>Comments on: Perry Anderson on Rawls</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62786</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I didn&#039;t understand what Rawls is saying in the last quote.  Anyone want to elaborate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I didn&#8217;t understand what Rawls is saying in the last quote.  Anyone want to elaborate?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62787</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Donald,
On Rawls&#039;s account, a capitalist welfare state rejects the &quot;fair value of political liberties&quot; and doesn&#039;t have the means to offer fair equality of opportunity.  It also permits very large inequalities in ownership of land, capital, and resources, and doesn&#039;t recognize a principle of reciprocity in regulating social inequalities.  A &quot;property owning democracy&quot; works to &quot;disperse the ownership of wealth and capital&quot; so as to keep power from being concentrated.  There are other differences as well, but this is a rought sketch.  See section IV of _Justice as Fairness_ for discussion</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Donald,<br />
On Rawls&#8217;s account, a capitalist welfare state rejects the &#8220;fair value of political liberties&#8221; and doesn&#8217;t have the means to offer fair equality of opportunity.  It also permits very large inequalities in ownership of land, capital, and resources, and doesn&#8217;t recognize a principle of reciprocity in regulating social inequalities.  A &#8220;property owning democracy&#8221; works to &#8220;disperse the ownership of wealth and capital&#8221; so as to keep power from being concentrated.  There are other differences as well, but this is a rought sketch.  See section IV of <em>Justice as Fairness</em> for discussion</p>
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		<title>By: Javier</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62788</link>
		<dc:creator>Javier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As I recall, Rawls also says that a liberal socialist regime (market socialism) also satisfies the principles of justice as fairness. A laissez-faire and capitalist welfare state fall considerably short.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I recall, Rawls also says that a liberal socialist regime (market socialism) also satisfies the principles of justice as fairness. A laissez-faire and capitalist welfare state fall considerably short.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62789</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anderson has been misrepresenting arguments he disagrees with and substituting wishful thinking (&quot;theory&quot;) for facts for so long (at least as far back as the &quot;Pecularities of the English&quot; debate) that I&#039;m surprised anybody still takes him seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anderson has been misrepresenting arguments he disagrees with and substituting wishful thinking (&#8220;theory&#8221;) for facts for so long (at least as far back as the &#8220;Pecularities of the English&#8221; debate) that I&#8217;m surprised anybody still takes him seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62790</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62790</guid>
		<description>Interesting: &quot;The central charge against Rawls and Habermas is that of providing left philosophical cover for Western intervention in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. In Rawls’s case, this is because Rawls argues in general terms that “outlaw states” which violate human rights and threaten their neighbours cannot claim immunity from intervention from liberal states.&quot; The argument Anderson is making is obviously that the inverse is not considered. The U.S. might well be a democracy, but it might vote into office a power that , for instance, is intent on legalizing the American generation of pollutants to an extent actually harming the health and welfare of other nations in the world. Just to take an obviously fictitious example. And they might continually re-elect such a faction. So: is there a right to intervene, militarily, to prevent the Americans from causing harm to the rest of the world? What if it could be proven that the American government, or, say, the U.K., intentionally and with forethought encouraged the sale of weapons manufactured in those countries to despots and human rights violators who used them in systematically immoral ways. Could the citizens of these countries, stop this heinous action by force? Would Rawls approve? If the Sandinistas, for instance, had mined the Miami harbor, would Rawls have out there, cheering them on? 

Anderson is asking a fair question: is the liberal world order of infinitely beneficient interventions by democratic powers merely a camoflaged continuation of an old colonial order, founded on the slave trade, conquest, and genocide? Is it possible that the liberal powers, heirs of their illiberal forefathers, are continuing the work of their forefathers? And if it isn&#039;t, why is it that no other forms of restitution and change than intervention are considered? 

If Rawls is right, surely one can look around and find acts of pure benefit that emerge from liberal interventions. So, where are they? If Anderson is right, there should be material benefits flowing to intervening nations that have couched their interventions in liberal terms. Are there any?  

On Anderson&#039;s side is history: for example, the seizure of half of Africa, by the Brits, was done in the name of stopping the slave trade, and ended up benefitting white British farmers, ranchers, and miners enormously, while displacing and destroying native African groups. On Rawls side  -- Bosnia has not recently suffered the massacres it suffered last decade. 

The dispute between Rawls and Anderson isn&#039;t about misreading, then, it is about interpreting social facts.  Nor is Anderson&#039;s position simply nihilistic -- for instance, if he is right, a positive liberal politics would recognize past and current patterns of economic and ecological oppression. A good place to start would be to stop the use of the World Bank to jimmy wealth out of third world nations after investors have systematically corrupted a ruling elite with bribes and saturated these countries with huge and unproductive debts by calling for a massive debt cancellation. For instance, the vast majority of the money loaned to Venezuala in the 90s was robbed by the governing class that contracted the debts, with the knowledge and the connivence of the lenders. Let&#039;s simply make those debts uncollectable. A nice form of liberal intervention, n&#039;est-ce pas?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting: &#8220;The central charge against Rawls and Habermas is that of providing left philosophical cover for Western intervention in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. In Rawls&#8217;s case, this is because Rawls argues in general terms that &#8220;outlaw states&#8221; which violate human rights and threaten their neighbours cannot claim immunity from intervention from liberal states.&#8221; The argument Anderson is making is obviously that the inverse is not considered. The U.S. might well be a democracy, but it might vote into office a power that , for instance, is intent on legalizing the American generation of pollutants to an extent actually harming the health and welfare of other nations in the world. Just to take an obviously fictitious example. And they might continually re-elect such a faction. So: is there a right to intervene, militarily, to prevent the Americans from causing harm to the rest of the world? What if it could be proven that the American government, or, say, the U.K., intentionally and with forethought encouraged the sale of weapons manufactured in those countries to despots and human rights violators who used them in systematically immoral ways. Could the citizens of these countries, stop this heinous action by force? Would Rawls approve? If the Sandinistas, for instance, had mined the Miami harbor, would Rawls have out there, cheering them on?</p>

	<p>Anderson is asking a fair question: is the liberal world order of infinitely beneficient interventions by democratic powers merely a camoflaged continuation of an old colonial order, founded on the slave trade, conquest, and genocide? Is it possible that the liberal powers, heirs of their illiberal forefathers, are continuing the work of their forefathers? And if it isn&#8217;t, why is it that no other forms of restitution and change than intervention are considered?</p>

	<p>If Rawls is right, surely one can look around and find acts of pure benefit that emerge from liberal interventions. So, where are they? If Anderson is right, there should be material benefits flowing to intervening nations that have couched their interventions in liberal terms. Are there any?</p>

	<p>On Anderson&#8217;s side is history: for example, the seizure of half of Africa, by the Brits, was done in the name of stopping the slave trade, and ended up benefitting white British farmers, ranchers, and miners enormously, while displacing and destroying native African groups. On Rawls side &#8212;Bosnia has not recently suffered the massacres it suffered last decade.</p>

	<p>The dispute between Rawls and Anderson isn&#8217;t about misreading, then, it is about interpreting social facts.  Nor is Anderson&#8217;s position simply nihilistic&#8212;for instance, if he is right, a positive liberal politics would recognize past and current patterns of economic and ecological oppression. A good place to start would be to stop the use of the World Bank to jimmy wealth out of third world nations after investors have systematically corrupted a ruling elite with bribes and saturated these countries with huge and unproductive debts by calling for a massive debt cancellation. For instance, the vast majority of the money loaned to Venezuala in the 90s was robbed by the governing class that contracted the debts, with the knowledge and the connivence of the lenders. Let&#8217;s simply make those debts uncollectable. A nice form of liberal intervention, n&#8217;est-ce pas?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62791</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62791</guid>
		<description>Roger,
Since it&#039;s pretty obvious to anyone who&#039;s read Rawls that the US doesn&#039;t count as a fully just society by any means, and certainly 19th Century England didn&#039;t, how do your examples actually relate to what Rawls says?  Of course people can try to use what Rawls says to justify all sorts of things about present US policy.  It&#039;s pretty clear they are wrong when they are doing this, though.  So, I wonder what you think your point is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger,<br />
Since it&#8217;s pretty obvious to anyone who&#8217;s read Rawls that the US doesn&#8217;t count as a fully just society by any means, and certainly 19th Century England didn&#8217;t, how do your examples actually relate to what Rawls says?  Of course people can try to use what Rawls says to justify all sorts of things about present US policy.  It&#8217;s pretty clear they are wrong when they are doing this, though.  So, I wonder what you think your point is.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62792</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62792</guid>
		<description>Matt, your claim seems to be, then, that there were no liberal democracies a la Rawls until ... when, exactly? To which I have to ask the question: Where did they appear? How are they connected to these non-liberal entities they used to be? If I were the heir of a mafia fortune, and I decided to engage in good works, wouldn&#039;t I have to ask myself first -- where did this money come from? 

My claim is pretty simple -- that philosophy is not so distant from social fact that you can&#039;t look around in the world to make judgments about conflicting claims. And certainly one of the great social facts during Rawls life time was the explosion in debt in the third world . And that debt had a pattern -- money from poorer countries poured into rich countries. So I am thinking, hmm, if we really want our liberal interveners to be liberal, maybe they can start their intervening at home. I also notice that the liberal intervenors in Bosnia were, simulatanously, arming to the teeth various non-democratic countries -- for instance in the Gulf. And I think: well, if Anderson is right, I&#039;d expect that these for profit enterprises will be given some ideological covering to make them seem democratic. 

I refer you to the speeches of Bush, vis a vis Pakistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt, your claim seems to be, then, that there were no liberal democracies a la Rawls until &#8230; when, exactly? To which I have to ask the question: Where did they appear? How are they connected to these non-liberal entities they used to be? If I were the heir of a mafia fortune, and I decided to engage in good works, wouldn&#8217;t I have to ask myself first&#8212;where did this money come from?</p>

	<p>My claim is pretty simple&#8212;that philosophy is not so distant from social fact that you can&#8217;t look around in the world to make judgments about conflicting claims. And certainly one of the great social facts during Rawls life time was the explosion in debt in the third world . And that debt had a pattern&#8212;money from poorer countries poured into rich countries. So I am thinking, hmm, if we really want our liberal interveners to be liberal, maybe they can start their intervening at home. I also notice that the liberal intervenors in Bosnia were, simulatanously, arming to the teeth various non-democratic countries&#8212;for instance in the Gulf. And I think: well, if Anderson is right, I&#8217;d expect that these for profit enterprises will be given some ideological covering to make them seem democratic.</p>

	<p>I refer you to the speeches of Bush, vis a vis Pakistan.</p>
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		<title>By: Louis Proyect</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62793</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis Proyect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62793</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t understand Chris&#039;s peevishness with Perry Anderson. Isn&#039;t it obvious that Rawls, Bobbio and Habermas have an overly sanguine view of the USA as moral actor? It might be understandable that men who fought in WWII might have illusions about the stars and stripes of the kind found in movies like Ben Barzman&#039;s &quot;Back to Bataan&quot; or John Howard Lawson&#039;s &quot;Sahara&quot;, but for a relative youngster like Chris who came of age during the Vietnam war, such illusions are most unseemly.

People such as Gabriel Kolko exposed the sordid history of liberal interventionism when he was a lad. From the Vietnam era revisionists, we learn that Sumner Welles longed for the days when &quot;the Pacific should be a lake under American jurisdiction...&quot; 

Meanwhile, Churchill wrote Eden at the time, &quot;If the Americans want to take Japanese islands which they have conquered, let them do so with our blessing and any form of words that may be agreeable to them. But &#039;Hands Off the British Empire&#039; is our maxim.&quot;

As far as the struggle against Hitlerism is concerned, I&#039;ll refer you to &quot;The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion&quot; by Clement Leibovitz and Alvin Finkel. It is interesting that this MR book had a preface by Christopher Hitchens before he went through the Road to Damascus conversion that Attila Hoare and Chris went through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I can&#8217;t understand Chris&#8217;s peevishness with Perry Anderson. Isn&#8217;t it obvious that Rawls, Bobbio and Habermas have an overly sanguine view of the <span class="caps">USA</span> as moral actor? It might be understandable that men who fought in <span class="caps">WWII</span> might have illusions about the stars and stripes of the kind found in movies like Ben Barzman&#8217;s &#8220;Back to Bataan&#8221; or John Howard Lawson&#8217;s &#8220;Sahara&#8221;, but for a relative youngster like Chris who came of age during the Vietnam war, such illusions are most unseemly.</p>

	<p>People such as Gabriel Kolko exposed the sordid history of liberal interventionism when he was a lad. From the Vietnam era revisionists, we learn that Sumner Welles longed for the days when &#8220;the Pacific should be a lake under American jurisdiction&#8230;&#8221;</p>

	<p>Meanwhile, Churchill wrote Eden at the time, &#8220;If the Americans want to take Japanese islands which they have conquered, let them do so with our blessing and any form of words that may be agreeable to them. But &#8216;Hands Off the British Empire&#8217; is our maxim.&#8221;</p>

	<p>As far as the struggle against Hitlerism is concerned, I&#8217;ll refer you to &#8220;The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion&#8221; by Clement Leibovitz and Alvin Finkel. It is interesting that this MR book had a preface by Christopher Hitchens before he went through the Road to Damascus conversion that Attila Hoare and Chris went through.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62794</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62794</guid>
		<description>Roger,
I agree that the things you mention are very bad.  My point is, Rawls agrees too- quite clearly.  This is _obvious_ to anyone who reads him.  He _Agrees_ that the US is far from just, and should change its behavior at home and abroad.  So, why is the bad behavior of a system (the US) that Rawls thinks is bad a criticism of Ralws?  I just don&#039;t get it.  Notice that I didn&#039;t say the US isn&#039;t a liberal democracy.  Or that nothing done by a liberal democracy is wrong- certainly Ralws says nothing like that either.  I think it&#039;s clear that you&#039;re either fighting a straw man or are misunderstanding something about what Rawls says, or what his project is, or both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger,<br />
I agree that the things you mention are very bad.  My point is, Rawls agrees too- quite clearly.  This is <em>obvious</em> to anyone who reads him.  He <em>Agrees</em> that the US is far from just, and should change its behavior at home and abroad.  So, why is the bad behavior of a system (the US) that Rawls thinks is bad a criticism of Ralws?  I just don&#8217;t get it.  Notice that I didn&#8217;t say the US isn&#8217;t a liberal democracy.  Or that nothing done by a liberal democracy is wrong- certainly Ralws says nothing like that either.  I think it&#8217;s clear that you&#8217;re either fighting a straw man or are misunderstanding something about what Rawls says, or what his project is, or both.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62795</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62795</guid>
		<description>Louis,
What&#039;s your evidence that Rawls had an overly sanguine view of the US as a moral actor?  Can you cite a text for us?  Note that Rawls condemned many actions by the alies in WWII, even some that probably personally helped him, such as the use of nuclear bombs on Japan.  This view is also not supported by, say, discussion w/ his former students.  So, unless you can cite some texts, I&#039;ll assume you&#039;re making things up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Louis,<br />
What&#8217;s your evidence that Rawls had an overly sanguine view of the US as a moral actor?  Can you cite a text for us?  Note that Rawls condemned many actions by the alies in <span class="caps">WWII</span>, even some that probably personally helped him, such as the use of nuclear bombs on Japan.  This view is also not supported by, say, discussion w/ his former students.  So, unless you can cite some texts, I&#8217;ll assume you&#8217;re making things up.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62796</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62796</guid>
		<description>Matt, are you saying that Rawls was not an advocate for a liberal interventionism? In which case, if you are right, I am wrong. Or are you saying his case for liberal interventionism, acknowledges the interests and structural &#039;problems&quot; of the liberal interveners, but still advocates a policy of military interventions? In which case I&#039;d want to know more about how we value and what we do about that acknowledgement -- is there a threshhold beyond which we acknowledge that intervention is vicious because it is being carried out by the illiberal to shore up an unjust system? Or are our judgments wholly dependent on the monstrousness of the rulers of the state intervened upon? 

Practical reason would instruct us that intention is not the whole of morality -- both means and character are also factors. To give a concrete instance of this -- when Truman intervened in Korea, he also decided to desegregate the armed forces, realizing that it was impossible to hold the moral high ground and still hold to outright racism. So here&#039;s the question -- if we have a theory of intervention that is only one way -- that has no channel that changes the bad behavior of the intervenors -- doesn&#039;t this rather explode the very base of liberal intervention?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt, are you saying that Rawls was not an advocate for a liberal interventionism? In which case, if you are right, I am wrong. Or are you saying his case for liberal interventionism, acknowledges the interests and structural &#8216;problems&#8221; of the liberal interveners, but still advocates a policy of military interventions? In which case I&#8217;d want to know more about how we value and what we do about that acknowledgement&#8212;is there a threshhold beyond which we acknowledge that intervention is vicious because it is being carried out by the illiberal to shore up an unjust system? Or are our judgments wholly dependent on the monstrousness of the rulers of the state intervened upon?</p>

	<p>Practical reason would instruct us that intention is not the whole of morality&#8212;both means and character are also factors. To give a concrete instance of this&#8212;when Truman intervened in Korea, he also decided to desegregate the armed forces, realizing that it was impossible to hold the moral high ground and still hold to outright racism. So here&#8217;s the question&#8212;if we have a theory of intervention that is only one way&#8212;that has no channel that changes the bad behavior of the intervenors&#8212;doesn&#8217;t this rather explode the very base of liberal intervention?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62797</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62797</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I can’t understand Chris’s peevishness with Perry Anderson.&lt;/i&gt;

I should disclose that I have experience both as an employee of Anderson&#039;s at Verso and as a member of the NLR editorial committee. I think a straw poll of former occupants of either position would reveal a great deal of peevishness quite unrelated to any political difference. But apart from that: what Matt said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I can&#8217;t understand Chris&#8217;s peevishness with Perry Anderson.</i></p>

	<p>I should disclose that I have experience both as an employee of Anderson&#8217;s at Verso and as a member of the <span class="caps">NLR</span> editorial committee. I think a straw poll of former occupants of either position would reveal a great deal of peevishness quite unrelated to any political difference. But apart from that: what Matt said.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62798</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62798</guid>
		<description>Roger and Louis are wrong to see Rawls as thinking of America as a just society, but they would be right to see Rawls as having a more benign (because more balanced) view of the US than Anderson does. 

Notice how Anderson characterized Rawls&#039;s service in the war against aggressive Japanese militarism:

bq. Service in America’s war to regain the Pacific.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger and Louis are wrong to see Rawls as thinking of America as a just society, but they would be right to see Rawls as having a more benign (because more balanced) view of the US than Anderson does.</p>

	<p>Notice how Anderson characterized Rawls&#8217;s service in the war against aggressive Japanese militarism:</p>

	<blockquote>Service in America&#8217;s war to regain the Pacific.</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62799</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62799</guid>
		<description>Roger,
Rawls does allow for intervention in some cases- surely any sensible theory will do this-.  I&#039;d like to go back to the text if I could, but I&#039;m not at home and my books are.  But, there are quite specific instances where intervention may be justified.  Whether Kosovo was such as case I can&#039;t say.  There is a distinct question about how an intervention is undertaken.  This is, I&#039;d think, elementary.  But note, Rawls is offering a normative account about when something (intervention) is justified, not a practical plan of action nor a policy program, which seems to be what you&#039;re after.  It&#039;s good to be after that- but it&#039;s just not his program.  This is no different than the domestic account- he doesn&#039;t provide a worked out idea of what a just tax sheme would look like, though of couse we&#039;d like someone to figure that out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger,<br />
Rawls does allow for intervention in some cases- surely any sensible theory will do this-.  I&#8217;d like to go back to the text if I could, but I&#8217;m not at home and my books are.  But, there are quite specific instances where intervention may be justified.  Whether Kosovo was such as case I can&#8217;t say.  There is a distinct question about how an intervention is undertaken.  This is, I&#8217;d think, elementary.  But note, Rawls is offering a normative account about when something (intervention) is justified, not a practical plan of action nor a policy program, which seems to be what you&#8217;re after.  It&#8217;s good to be after that- but it&#8217;s just not his program.  This is no different than the domestic account- he doesn&#8217;t provide a worked out idea of what a just tax sheme would look like, though of couse we&#8217;d like someone to figure that out.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Louis Proyect</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/comment-page-1/#comment-62800</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis Proyect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/wp/2005/03/03/perry-anderson-on-rawls/#comment-62800</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I wasn&#039;t clear enough. My reference to the US as moral actor was broader than WWII. From what I understand, Rawls had a honorable position on Hiroshima.

I was referring instead to the notion that American capitalist politicians act out of some moral consideration. In Rawls&#039; case, this led to a wild exaggeration of Lincoln&#039;s virtues.

Any impartial study of Lincoln&#039;s career would reveal not the slightest willingness to abolish slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation was adopted in order to shore up the North during a particularly perilous moment in the Civil War.

Abraham Lincoln a Racist?  

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa082800a.htm
 
In his new book, Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln&#039;s White Dream, black American author, Lerone Bennett, presents historic evidence supporting the theory that Abraham Lincoln was, in fact, a devoted racist harboring a life-long desire to see all black Americans deported to Africa. 

Bennett suggests that as a young politician in Illinois, Lincoln regularly used racial slurs in speeches, told racial jokes to his black servants, and vocally opposed any new laws that would have bettered the lives of black Americans.

Key to Bennett&#039;s thesis is the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation which, Bennett argues, Lincoln was forced into issuing by the powerful abolitionist wing of his own party. Bennett asserts that Lincoln carefully worded the document to apply only to the rebel Southern states, which were not under Union control at the time, thus resulting in an Emancipation Proclamation that did not in itself free a single slave.

At one point, Bennett quotes William Henry Seward, Lincoln&#039;s secretary of state, who referred to the proclamation as a hollow, meaningless document showing no more than, &quot;our sympathy with the slaves by emancipating the slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free.&quot;

Henry Clay Whitney, a close friend of Lincoln, is quoted by Bennett as saying the proclamation was &quot;not the end designed by him (Lincoln), but only the means to the end, the end being the deportation of the slaves and the payment for them to their masters - at least to those who were loyal.&quot;

Bennett asserts that Lincoln often put forth plans for deporting the slaves to Africa both before and during his presidency. 

The tone of Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln&#039;s White Dream is decidedly angry, as if Bennett feels betrayed by what he calls the &quot;myth&quot; of Abraham Lincoln. 

&quot;No other American story is so enduring. No other American story is so comforting. No other American story is so false.&quot; -- Lerone Bennett, Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln&#039;s White Dream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Perhaps I wasn&#8217;t clear enough. My reference to the US as moral actor was broader than <span class="caps">WWII</span>. From what I understand, Rawls had a honorable position on Hiroshima.</p>

	<p>I was referring instead to the notion that American capitalist politicians act out of some moral consideration. In Rawls&#8217; case, this led to a wild exaggeration of Lincoln&#8217;s virtues.</p>

	<p>Any impartial study of Lincoln&#8217;s career would reveal not the slightest willingness to abolish slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation was adopted in order to shore up the North during a particularly perilous moment in the Civil War.</p>

	<p>Abraham Lincoln a Racist?</p>

	<p><a href="http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa082800a.htm" rel="nofollow">http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa082800a.htm</a></p>

	<p>In his new book, Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln&#8217;s White Dream, black American author, Lerone Bennett, presents historic evidence supporting the theory that Abraham Lincoln was, in fact, a devoted racist harboring a life-long desire to see all black Americans deported to Africa.</p>

	<p>Bennett suggests that as a young politician in Illinois, Lincoln regularly used racial slurs in speeches, told racial jokes to his black servants, and vocally opposed any new laws that would have bettered the lives of black Americans.</p>

	<p>Key to Bennett&#8217;s thesis is the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation which, Bennett argues, Lincoln was forced into issuing by the powerful abolitionist wing of his own party. Bennett asserts that Lincoln carefully worded the document to apply only to the rebel Southern states, which were not under Union control at the time, thus resulting in an Emancipation Proclamation that did not in itself free a single slave.</p>

	<p>At one point, Bennett quotes William Henry Seward, Lincoln&#8217;s secretary of state, who referred to the proclamation as a hollow, meaningless document showing no more than, &#8220;our sympathy with the slaves by emancipating the slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Henry Clay Whitney, a close friend of Lincoln, is quoted by Bennett as saying the proclamation was &#8220;not the end designed by him (Lincoln), but only the means to the end, the end being the deportation of the slaves and the payment for them to their masters &#8211; at least to those who were loyal.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Bennett asserts that Lincoln often put forth plans for deporting the slaves to Africa both before and during his presidency.</p>

	<p>The tone of Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln&#8217;s White Dream is decidedly angry, as if Bennett feels betrayed by what he calls the &#8220;myth&#8221; of Abraham Lincoln.</p>

	<p>&#8220;No other American story is so enduring. No other American story is so comforting. No other American story is so false.&#8221;&#8212;Lerone Bennett, Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln&#8217;s White Dream.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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