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	<title>Comments on: Making Men into Fathers</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: monica</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66105</link>
		<dc:creator>monica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2005 09:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66105</guid>
		<description>Besides, y81, care to tell us why you think what you read is &quot;superficial&quot;? What are your standards of reality and accuracy? You have a problem with a simple &quot;as far as I know&quot; about actual existing legislation, yet you make categorical statements of your own to dismiss facts without even bothering to explain why you&#039;d reach that conclusion it&#039;s all &quot;fantasy&quot;. 

You seem to think this is about proving how enligthened European men are, when it&#039;s just about the fact marriage is being increasingly paralleled by cohabitation as a family context in which children are born, to the extent several countries are indeed adopting laws to formally recognise cohabitation and civil partnerships (such as the French PACS). It&#039;s really as simple as that. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Besides, y81, care to tell us why you think what you read is &#8220;superficial&#8221;? What are your standards of reality and accuracy? You have a problem with a simple &#8220;as far as I know&#8221; about actual existing legislation, yet you make categorical statements of your own to dismiss facts without even bothering to explain why you&#8217;d reach that conclusion it&#8217;s all &#8220;fantasy&#8221;.</p>

	<p>You seem to think this is about proving how enligthened European men are, when it&#8217;s just about the fact marriage is being increasingly paralleled by cohabitation as a family context in which children are born, to the extent several countries are indeed adopting laws to formally recognise cohabitation and civil partnerships (such as the French <span class="caps">PACS</span>). It&#8217;s really as simple as that.</p>
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		<title>By: monica</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66104</link>
		<dc:creator>monica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2005 08:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66104</guid>
		<description>y81, this is getting surreal. The &quot;as far as I know&quot; refers to the fact that I know for sure it&#039;s like that - ie. fathers have legal duties towards their children, whether born in a marriage or not - in European countries I know of.  It&#039;s not a point about how &quot;men are behaving&quot; because there is not a single behaviour from a collective entity called &quot;men&quot; or &quot;europeans&quot; for that matter, if you want to turn this into a contest between American men and European men, I don&#039;t know what to say, it just makes me laugh. 

The point of that mention of legal duties is, even from the legal point of view alone, nevermind the cultural and social aspects that have been already discussed, marriage alone doesn&#039;t make a father automatically more responsible for his kids. Child support after separation is based on recognising children legally, not on being married. Biological paternity aknowledgement, birth certificates, that&#039;s what establishes paternity, not marriage. So it applies even to unmarried couples. There may be a different legal system where fathers have no legal responsibilities &lt;i&gt;whatsoever&lt;/i&gt; towards the children registered as theirs, but if there is &lt;i&gt;I haven&#039;t heard of that&lt;/i&gt; -- besides, there also &lt;a href=&quot;http://europa.eu.int/comm/justice_home/ejn/parental_resp/parental_resp_int_en.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;EU-wide laws&lt;/a&gt; (and a specific &lt;a href=&quot;http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/Reports/Html/085.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Convention on the legal status of children born out of wedlock&lt;/a&gt;, dating &lt;i&gt;1975&lt;/i&gt;...) as well as international laws on human rights.  

On the general point - are you seriously telling me you need a bunch of articles in academic journals to even begin to acknowledge that cohabitation is widespread in Europe and many children &quot;born out of wedlock&quot; are born from parents living together? This is a trend that&#039;s been going on for decades, and you make it sound like someone&#039;s claiming there&#039;s scientific proof that a statue of the Virgin Mary started weeping? 

No offence, but if you really know so little of what you&#039;re discussing, try looking up things for yourself first, without relying on others to provide links for you.

It also feels surreal to have to read some of the comments here. People who think tv ads equal legal intervention and that men are emasculated by Turkish toilets, are they even serious or not? What is so offensive about promoting more responsibility towards children?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>y81, this is getting surreal. The &#8220;as far as I know&#8221; refers to the fact that I know for sure it&#8217;s like that &#8211; ie. fathers have legal duties towards their children, whether born in a marriage or not &#8211; in European countries I know of.  It&#8217;s not a point about how &#8220;men are behaving&#8221; because there is not a single behaviour from a collective entity called &#8220;men&#8221; or &#8220;europeans&#8221; for that matter, if you want to turn this into a contest between American men and European men, I don&#8217;t know what to say, it just makes me laugh.</p>

	<p>The point of that mention of legal duties is, even from the legal point of view alone, nevermind the cultural and social aspects that have been already discussed, marriage alone doesn&#8217;t make a father automatically more responsible for his kids. Child support after separation is based on recognising children legally, not on being married. Biological paternity aknowledgement, birth certificates, that&#8217;s what establishes paternity, not marriage. So it applies even to unmarried couples. There may be a different legal system where fathers have no legal responsibilities <i>whatsoever</i> towards the children registered as theirs, but if there is <i>I haven&#8217;t heard of that</i>&#8212;besides, there also <a href="http://europa.eu.int/comm/justice_home/ejn/parental_resp/parental_resp_int_en.htm" rel="nofollow">EU-wide laws</a> (and a specific <a href="http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/Reports/Html/085.htm" rel="nofollow">Convention on the legal status of children born out of wedlock</a>, dating <i>1975</i>&#8230;) as well as international laws on human rights.</p>

	<p>On the general point &#8211; are you seriously telling me you need a bunch of articles in academic journals to even begin to acknowledge that cohabitation is widespread in Europe and many children &#8220;born out of wedlock&#8221; are born from parents living together? This is a trend that&#8217;s been going on for decades, and you make it sound like someone&#8217;s claiming there&#8217;s scientific proof that a statue of the Virgin Mary started weeping?</p>

	<p>No offence, but if you really know so little of what you&#8217;re discussing, try looking up things for yourself first, without relying on others to provide links for you.</p>

	<p>It also feels surreal to have to read some of the comments here. People who think tv ads equal legal intervention and that men are emasculated by Turkish toilets, are they even serious or not? What is so offensive about promoting more responsibility towards children?</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66073</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2005 01:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66073</guid>
		<description>Actually, Monica, having checked out your links, this is pretty superficial stuff.  I remain unconvinced that your fantasy about how new European men behave bears any relationship to reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, Monica, having checked out your links, this is pretty superficial stuff.  I remain unconvinced that your fantasy about how new European men behave bears any relationship to reality.</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66072</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Apr 2005 01:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66072</guid>
		<description>Interesting, Monica, and I will check out your links, although I would prefer footnotes to published articles.  You do win a prize for actually providing citations, although I remain skeptical of arguments that include the phrase &quot;as far as I know,&quot; which seems to exalt anecdote over data, and of references to &quot;legal duties,&quot; which seem to suggest that men aren&#039;t behaving the way the governing elite wants them to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting, Monica, and I will check out your links, although I would prefer footnotes to published articles.  You do win a prize for actually providing citations, although I remain skeptical of arguments that include the phrase &#8220;as far as I know,&#8221; which seems to exalt anecdote over data, and of references to &#8220;legal duties,&#8221; which seem to suggest that men aren&#8217;t behaving the way the governing elite wants them to.</p>
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		<title>By: monica</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66018</link>
		<dc:creator>monica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66018</guid>
		<description>In other words, it&#039;s not about &quot;european men&quot; being different, it&#039;s about the whole married-unmarried distinction being different...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In other words, it&#8217;s not about &#8220;european men&#8221; being different, it&#8217;s about the whole married-unmarried distinction being different&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: monica</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66014</link>
		<dc:creator>monica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66014</guid>
		<description>y81, it&#039;s really not that hard to see or understand. Cohabiting without being married is the same as being married, except you&#039;re not formally married. The formal status of marriage alone doesn&#039;t change the parental involvement for a couple in a stable relationship and living together, in a house they bought together or are paying rent or mortgage for together. Cohabitation for couples is seen as a full commitment, like marriage. Especially now with new laws for recognising partnerships outside of marriage. 

Unmarried cohabited couples with children is a much more widespread situation in Europe than unmarried single parent with children with absent parent. 

It&#039;s not anecdotical evidence from two or three friends. Just do a quick search for &quot;statistics on cohabitation in europe&quot;, you&#039;d find stuff like this:

Cohabitiation in Western Europe
Investigating changes in patterns of forming partnerships. (1999)
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/article.asp?ID=609&amp;Pos=4&amp;ColRank=2&amp;Rank=432

&lt;blockquote&gt;Cohabitation is strikingly most common in the Nordic countries of Denmark, Sweden and Finland, and France also has relatively high proportions cohabiting. For example, in these four countries around 30 per cent of women aged 25-29 years were cohabiting. 

Key findings ● In most West and Northern European countries cohabitation has eclipsed marriage as the marker for first partnership whereas in Southern Europe it continues to be marriage. ● In many Western and Northern European countries, with Britain being one of the exceptions, there is little evidence that the propensity to become a couple has declined, as cohabitation has simply replaced some of the marriages of yesteryear.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://www.mzes.uni-mannheim.de/eurodata/newsletter/no1/househol.html

&lt;blockquote&gt;(1) Countries where cohabitation established itself as socially accepted behaviour are Sweden, Denmark and Iceland. In the other Scandinavian or Nordic countries Norway and Finland the number of cohabiting couples has reached a high level. (...) The majority of children today are no longer born within marriage in these countries, but in cohabitation.

(2) The second group of countries where cohabitation slowly emerges as a form of living arrangement includes Austria, Finland, Norway, Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany. Within this group two subgroups can be distinguished. The rate of children born out-of-wedlock is high in (a) Austria, Finland, France, Great Britain and Norway, but rather low in (b) the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. These observations suggest the following interpretation: in Switzerland, the Netherlands and Germany cohabitation means that childless partners live together and marry when children arrive. This is not true for Austria, Finland, Germany, Great Britain and Norway; in any case, births of children occur much more frequently within cohabitation, although the cohabiting couples often marry afterwards (see also Haskey 1992).

In some Nordic countries the number of children born outside marriage has risen tremendously. The share of births out-of-wedlock (in % of all live births) is particularly high in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway, but it is also remarkable in France, Finland, Great Britain and Austria (Graph 2). (...) In the Nordic countries most of the children born outside marriage are born within cohabitation and not, for example, to a &quot;single&quot; mother.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


The notion of &quot;born out of wedlock&quot; as some negative thing has become outdated because there is no longer such a negative connotation to the word &quot;unmarried&quot;. Children born from cohabiting couples are considered exactly like children born from married couples. Even aside from the cultural and social aspect, in most places as far as I know the father still has legal duties to do his part to provide for the children who are legally recognised as his own, even if the couple split up.  So there isn&#039;t really that much of a difference with marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>y81, it&#8217;s really not that hard to see or understand. Cohabiting without being married is the same as being married, except you&#8217;re not formally married. The formal status of marriage alone doesn&#8217;t change the parental involvement for a couple in a stable relationship and living together, in a house they bought together or are paying rent or mortgage for together. Cohabitation for couples is seen as a full commitment, like marriage. Especially now with new laws for recognising partnerships outside of marriage.</p>

	<p>Unmarried cohabited couples with children is a much more widespread situation in Europe than unmarried single parent with children with absent parent.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not anecdotical evidence from two or three friends. Just do a quick search for &#8220;statistics on cohabitation in europe&#8221;, you&#8217;d find stuff like this:</p>

	<p>Cohabitiation in Western Europe<br />
Investigating changes in patterns of forming partnerships. (1999)<br />
<a href="http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/article.asp?ID=609&#038;Pos=4&#038;ColRank=2&#038;Rank=432" rel="nofollow">http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/article.asp?ID=609&#038;Pos=4&#038;ColRank=2&#038;Rank=432</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>Cohabitation is strikingly most common in the Nordic countries of Denmark, Sweden and Finland, and France also has relatively high proportions cohabiting. For example, in these four countries around 30 per cent of women aged 25-29 years were cohabiting.</blockquote></p>

	<p>Key findings ● In most West and Northern European countries cohabitation has eclipsed marriage as the marker for first partnership whereas in Southern Europe it continues to be marriage. ● In many Western and Northern European countries, with Britain being one of the exceptions, there is little evidence that the propensity to become a couple has declined, as cohabitation has simply replaced some of the marriages of yesteryear.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.mzes.uni-mannheim.de/eurodata/newsletter/no1/househol.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mzes.uni-mannheim.de/eurodata/newsletter/no1/househol.html</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>(1) Countries where cohabitation established itself as socially accepted behaviour are Sweden, Denmark and Iceland. In the other Scandinavian or Nordic countries Norway and Finland the number of cohabiting couples has reached a high level. (&#8230;) The majority of children today are no longer born within marriage in these countries, but in cohabitation.</blockquote></p>

	<p>(2) The second group of countries where cohabitation slowly emerges as a form of living arrangement includes Austria, Finland, Norway, Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany. Within this group two subgroups can be distinguished. The rate of children born out-of-wedlock is high in (a) Austria, Finland, France, Great Britain and Norway, but rather low in (b) the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. These observations suggest the following interpretation: in Switzerland, the Netherlands and Germany cohabitation means that childless partners live together and marry when children arrive. This is not true for Austria, Finland, Germany, Great Britain and Norway; in any case, births of children occur much more frequently within cohabitation, although the cohabiting couples often marry afterwards (see also Haskey 1992).</p>

	<p>In some Nordic countries the number of children born outside marriage has risen tremendously. The share of births out-of-wedlock (in % of all live births) is particularly high in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway, but it is also remarkable in France, Finland, Great Britain and Austria (Graph 2). (&#8230;) In the Nordic countries most of the children born outside marriage are born within cohabitation and not, for example, to a &#8220;single&#8221; mother.</p>


	<p>The notion of &#8220;born out of wedlock&#8221; as some negative thing has become outdated because there is no longer such a negative connotation to the word &#8220;unmarried&#8221;. Children born from cohabiting couples are considered exactly like children born from married couples. Even aside from the cultural and social aspect, in most places as far as I know the father still has legal duties to do his part to provide for the children who are legally recognised as his own, even if the couple split up.  So there isn&#8217;t really that much of a difference with marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-66013</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-66013</guid>
		<description>y81, as has been repeated, out of wedlock births are largely due to growth in cohabitation, which does not at all imply less involvement. In fact, a very common tendency is for marriage to follow cohabitation, so many of these out-of-wedlock births end up in married families sooner or later. 

And as for divorce, you surely realise the US is the world leader in this field! Off the top of my head, the UK is pretty high, but not anything like the US, and the rest of western Europe lags substantially. 

From a western European perspective, the US seems a pretty weird place, with high rates of marriage, low average ages at marriage, and huge rates of divorce. And as you&#039;ll surely acknowledge, divorce has a really bad effect on fathers&#039; involvement, on average.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>y81, as has been repeated, out of wedlock births are largely due to growth in cohabitation, which does not at all imply less involvement. In fact, a very common tendency is for marriage to follow cohabitation, so many of these out-of-wedlock births end up in married families sooner or later.</p>

	<p>And as for divorce, you surely realise the US is the world leader in this field! Off the top of my head, the UK is pretty high, but not anything like the US, and the rest of western Europe lags substantially.</p>

	<p>From a western European perspective, the US seems a pretty weird place, with high rates of marriage, low average ages at marriage, and huge rates of divorce. And as you&#8217;ll surely acknowledge, divorce has a really bad effect on fathers&#8217; involvement, on average.</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65988</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2005 15:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65988</guid>
		<description>Well, April, the social science literature on American families shows pretty clearly that married fathers are more involved with their children than unmarried fathers.  I am not familiar with any European literature on this topic.  Can you point me to some peer-reviewed literature showing that European men are totally different, that unmarried fathers are just as involved with their children as married ones?  It really doesn&#039;t count as knowledge or a sound guide to policy to  point to two or three of your friends.  It&#039;s like pointing to your 90-year-old great aunt who smokes and ignoring the actual epidemiological evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, April, the social science literature on American families shows pretty clearly that married fathers are more involved with their children than unmarried fathers.  I am not familiar with any European literature on this topic.  Can you point me to some peer-reviewed literature showing that European men are totally different, that unmarried fathers are just as involved with their children as married ones?  It really doesn&#8217;t count as knowledge or a sound guide to policy to  point to two or three of your friends.  It&#8217;s like pointing to your 90-year-old great aunt who smokes and ignoring the actual epidemiological evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: European</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65971</link>
		<dc:creator>European</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65971</guid>
		<description>As somebody has already said above, the high rates of out-of-wedlock births in Europe are in fact a cultural thing, and do not imply any lack of parental involvement. The most devoted father I know has cohabited with his partner since before the birth of their 12-year-old, but they regard marriage as an outdated institution. 

The legalisation of abortion has caused out-of-wedlock births to lose their former stigma (very strong until the early nineteen-sixties), to the point where some people do not marry because this way they receive more benefits; besides the mother is in a stronger position to keep the children if they do separate, then if they got divorced. When you think about it, unless the prospective spouse is wealthy, there is really not much point to getting married these days, rather than just cohabit. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As somebody has already said above, the high rates of out-of-wedlock births in Europe are in fact a cultural thing, and do not imply any lack of parental involvement. The most devoted father I know has cohabited with his partner since before the birth of their 12-year-old, but they regard marriage as an outdated institution.</p>

	<p>The legalisation of abortion has caused out-of-wedlock births to lose their former stigma (very strong until the early nineteen-sixties), to the point where some people do not marry because this way they receive more benefits; besides the mother is in a stronger position to keep the children if they do separate, then if they got divorced. When you think about it, unless the prospective spouse is wealthy, there is really not much point to getting married these days, rather than just cohabit.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65921</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2005 00:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65921</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Stats that sya women do whatever, 70% of the housework, are also suspect, in other words, how much of this housework is discretionary – who gets to decide what does and doesn’t need to be done, or is that just a woman’s purview?&lt;/i&gt;

Heh.  That was the source of a few arguments early in my marriage.  In response to, &quot;Honey will you do x?&quot; my answer was &quot;Sure I&#039;ll be in charge of that&quot;.  And then a while later, I&#039;d get, &quot;I thought you said you&#039;d do x?&quot;  To which, I&#039;d say, &quot;Nope, I said I&#039;d be in charge of it--and being in charge means deciding when to do it, and how to do it, and how often to do it.  It&#039;s my job now, you don&#039;t need to worry about it.&quot;  Then the next response would typically be, &quot;Well, then forget it, I&#039;ll do it myself&quot;.  And I&#039;d have to say, &quot;No, sorry, that&#039;s my job now.&quot;  It only took a few of those before we reached an understanding.  I&#039;m happy to take my share of the responsibilities, but I don&#039;t take direction.





</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Stats that sya women do whatever, 70% of the housework, are also suspect, in other words, how much of this housework is discretionary &#8211; who gets to decide what does and doesn&#8217;t need to be done, or is that just a woman&#8217;s purview?</i></p>

	<p>Heh.  That was the source of a few arguments early in my marriage.  In response to, &#8220;Honey will you do x?&#8221; my answer was &#8220;Sure I&#8217;ll be in charge of that&#8221;.  And then a while later, I&#8217;d get, &#8220;I thought you said you&#8217;d do x?&#8221;  To which, I&#8217;d say, &#8220;Nope, I said I&#8217;d be in charge of it&#8212;and being in charge means deciding when to do it, and how to do it, and how often to do it.  It&#8217;s my job now, you don&#8217;t need to worry about it.&#8221;  Then the next response would typically be, &#8220;Well, then forget it, I&#8217;ll do it myself&#8221;.  And I&#8217;d have to say, &#8220;No, sorry, that&#8217;s my job now.&#8221;  It only took a few of those before we reached an understanding.  I&#8217;m happy to take my share of the responsibilities, but I don&#8217;t take direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65910</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 23:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65910</guid>
		<description>When there is a policy push to equalize custody judgements the angst about getting fathers to do more parenting or housework or whatever will look more like a serious position. 

The remark about coaching is very much to the point. likewise time spent in car maintnence seldom gets counted as housework. Stats that sya women do whatever, 70% of the housework, are also suspect, in other words, how much of this housework is discretionary - who gets to decide what does and doesn&#039;t need to be done, or is that just a woman&#039;s purview?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When there is a policy push to equalize custody judgements the angst about getting fathers to do more parenting or housework or whatever will look more like a serious position.</p>

	<p>The remark about coaching is very much to the point. likewise time spent in car maintnence seldom gets counted as housework. Stats that sya women do whatever, 70% of the housework, are also suspect, in other words, how much of this housework is discretionary &#8211; who gets to decide what does and doesn&#8217;t need to be done, or is that just a woman&#8217;s purview?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65898</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65898</guid>
		<description>Hey chips, didn&#039;t raimo, to whom I was replying, specifically say the issue was &quot;making&quot; men FATHERS, not housekeepers (I&#039;m both, of course?) Maybe all you people who like to deliver moralistic lectures about this stuff need to huddle until you&#039;ve got your story straight. Or else get off your high horses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey chips, didn&#8217;t raimo, to whom I was replying, specifically say the issue was &#8220;making&#8221; men <span class="caps">FATHERS</span>, not housekeepers (I&#8217;m both, of course?) Maybe all you people who like to deliver moralistic lectures about this stuff need to huddle until you&#8217;ve got your story straight. Or else get off your high horses.</p>
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		<title>By: hinglemar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65881</link>
		<dc:creator>hinglemar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65881</guid>
		<description>This is news? In Canada we&#039;ve had maternity and parental benefits for a while. The birth mother can take up to 15 weeks (maternity) and the parents can divy up 35 weeks (parental) however they want. The employer has no say in the matter and is obligated to keep them.

BTW &quot;child rearing&quot; and &quot;homemaking&quot; are only loosely related. Doesn&#039;t coaching or scout leading count for anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is news? In Canada we&#8217;ve had maternity and parental benefits for a while. The birth mother can take up to 15 weeks (maternity) and the parents can divy up 35 weeks (parental) however they want. The employer has no say in the matter and is obligated to keep them.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW </span>&#8220;child rearing&#8221; and &#8220;homemaking&#8221; are only loosely related. Doesn&#8217;t coaching or scout leading count for anything?</p>
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		<title>By: chips</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65850</link>
		<dc:creator>chips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 20:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65850</guid>
		<description>The &quot;me and my buddies are all good dads&quot; argument is beside the point. The point is that studies consistently show that overall, women still do more than 70% of house and carework, even in dual income households. The government advertising campaigns obviously do not force anyone to change their behavior. These are tv spots, not laws. They are efforts to change societal norms about what it means to be a father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The &#8220;me and my buddies are all good dads&#8221; argument is beside the point. The point is that studies consistently show that overall, women still do more than 70% of house and carework, even in dual income households. The government advertising campaigns obviously do not force anyone to change their behavior. These are tv spots, not laws. They are efforts to change societal norms about what it means to be a father.</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/comment-page-1/#comment-65845</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 20:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/making-men-into-fathers/#comment-65845</guid>
		<description>Well, okay, Brendan, then rephrase my comment to read that examination of out-of-wedlock AND DIVORCE figures in Western Europe suggests that levels of paternal involvement are declining.  The basic point, that these initiatives are a bunch of left-liberal cant, bearing no relationship to life as it is actually lived in the countries under discussion, still stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, okay, Brendan, then rephrase my comment to read that examination of out-of-wedlock <span class="caps">AND DIVORCE</span> figures in Western Europe suggests that levels of paternal involvement are declining.  The basic point, that these initiatives are a bunch of left-liberal cant, bearing no relationship to life as it is actually lived in the countries under discussion, still stands.</p>
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