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	<title>Comments on: Real and virtual weapons</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Natalie Solent</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65878</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Solent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65878</guid>
		<description>Alas for my hopes of humanity! Oh well, the &quot;You Lose&quot; is undeniably cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alas for my hopes of humanity! Oh well, the &#8220;You Lose&#8221; is undeniably cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65824</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65824</guid>
		<description>World of Warcraft players of opposing factions had been able to use punctuation, etc. to communicate in a rather ASCII like fashion. The most awe-inspiring case I saw was someone who used a macro to spew out ten lines of punctuation that spelled &quot;YOU LOSE!&quot; as an outlined shape. As asg said, the developers put a stop to it with the current patch. As for what was said, sorry to disappoint, but it wasn&#039;t choosing dialogue over conflict--it was almost entirely for the purpose of trash-talking, occasionally to arrange a one-on-one duel (e.g., getting other players not to interfere). 

It&#039;s not unknown, however, for players to conspire by holding two accounts, one of them on each side. You&#039;re not supposed to do that, but some people do. There aren&#039;t really in-game economic benefits to such collusion, at least not yet. Once Blizzard puts in its new &quot;honor system&quot;, where player-vs-player conflict will actually have more in-game economic consequences, then such collusion may become more than just a mild bit of mischief.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>World of Warcraft players of opposing factions had been able to use punctuation, etc. to communicate in a rather <span class="caps">ASCII</span> like fashion. The most awe-inspiring case I saw was someone who used a macro to spew out ten lines of punctuation that spelled &#8220;YOU <span class="caps">LOSE</span>!&#8221; as an outlined shape. As asg said, the developers put a stop to it with the current patch. As for what was said, sorry to disappoint, but it wasn&#8217;t choosing dialogue over conflict&#8212;it was almost entirely for the purpose of trash-talking, occasionally to arrange a one-on-one duel (e.g., getting other players not to interfere).</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not unknown, however, for players to conspire by holding two accounts, one of them on each side. You&#8217;re not supposed to do that, but some people do. There aren&#8217;t really in-game economic benefits to such collusion, at least not yet. Once Blizzard puts in its new &#8220;honor system&#8221;, where player-vs-player conflict will actually have more in-game economic consequences, then such collusion may become more than just a mild bit of mischief.</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie Solent</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65819</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Solent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65819</guid>
		<description>asg,

What sort of things did the people communicating cross-faction by code in Warcraft want to say?

It&#039;s actually kind of inspiring. The rules of the game specified war yet they chose dialogue.

Unless they were conspiring to stab their own various sides in the back, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>asg,</p>

	<p>What sort of things did the people communicating cross-faction by code in Warcraft want to say?</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s actually kind of inspiring. The rules of the game specified war yet they chose dialogue.</p>

	<p>Unless they were conspiring to stab their own various sides in the back, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie Solent</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65800</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Solent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65800</guid>
		<description>I have posted about this post on Samizdata &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/007410.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have posted about this post on Samizdata <a href="http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/007410.html" rel="nofollow">here.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65769</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65769</guid>
		<description>I know nothing about Chinese property law, but if this case arose in the US, I&#039;m not sure why ordinary property law wouldn&#039;t apply here.  The sword is, after all, rival and excludible; the gameplayer cannot make copies of it, nor can more than one player use it at the same time.  The fact that the player&#039;s rights in the sword are limited is not unusual, because he doesn&#039;t really own it; he&#039;s essentially leasing the sword for some period of time as long as he pays his game fees.

Consider this analogy:  My housemate and I lease a delightful Saab convertible from a dealer.  Either we lease it jointly, or I lease it in my name and make a private agreement with him to share its use.  Without my consent, he then goes out and sublets 100% use of the car to a third person (i.e., thereby preventing me from using the car at all either).  Other than whatever differences may exist in the specific contract language in the car lease as opposed to the game agreement, it strikes me that the legal analysis should be essentially the same.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I know nothing about Chinese property law, but if this case arose in the US, I&#8217;m not sure why ordinary property law wouldn&#8217;t apply here.  The sword is, after all, rival and excludible; the gameplayer cannot make copies of it, nor can more than one player use it at the same time.  The fact that the player&#8217;s rights in the sword are limited is not unusual, because he doesn&#8217;t really own it; he&#8217;s essentially leasing the sword for some period of time as long as he pays his game fees.</p>

	<p>Consider this analogy:  My housemate and I lease a delightful Saab convertible from a dealer.  Either we lease it jointly, or I lease it in my name and make a private agreement with him to share its use.  Without my consent, he then goes out and sublets 100% use of the car to a third person (i.e., thereby preventing me from using the car at all either).  Other than whatever differences may exist in the specific contract language in the car lease as opposed to the game agreement, it strikes me that the legal analysis should be essentially the same.</p>
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		<title>By: ArC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65743</link>
		<dc:creator>ArC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 05:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65743</guid>
		<description>&quot;There’s nothing to stop governments creating new categories of virtual/intellectual property.&quot;

And in Korea, famously mad for online games like Lineage and Starcraft (yes, the latter&#039;s not massively multiplayer and persistent)...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4397159.stm

&lt;i&gt;The row is thought to have blown up partly because China has no laws that cover the theft of virtual in-game items.

This is in contrast to places like South Korea which has a section of its police force that investigates in-game crime.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;There&#8217;s nothing to stop governments creating new categories of virtual/intellectual property.&#8221;</p>

	<p>And in Korea, famously mad for online games like Lineage and Starcraft (yes, the latter&#8217;s not massively multiplayer and persistent)&#8230;</p>

	<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4397159.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4397159.stm</a></p>

	<p><i>The row is thought to have blown up partly because China has no laws that cover the theft of virtual in-game items.</i></p>

	<p>This is in contrast to places like South Korea which has a section of its police force that investigates in-game crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65741</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 05:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65741</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;They’re not. They are highly, highly artificial. They have rules that are unlike anything in the real world.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t know what that means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;They&#8217;re not. They are highly, highly artificial. They have rules that are unlike anything in the real world.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know what that means.</p>
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		<title>By: asg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65739</link>
		<dc:creator>asg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65739</guid>
		<description>As an addendum to what I just said, I guess the most dangerous trap to fall into when thinking about these virtual worlds is to think that they&#039;re in any way similar to the real world, just because they have certain economic dynamics.  They&#039;re not.  They are highly, highly artificial.  They have rules that are unlike anything in the real world.  Even their economies are highly artificial; what&#039;s interesting about them, and John can certainly elaborate on this, is how people work within a highly stylized system, which can be tailored to fit certain economic models, to further their goals, and how they do things unanticipated by the designers.

In World of Warcraft, there are two factions (the Horde and the Alliance).  Players from the two factions aren&#039;t allowed to communicate across faction lines -- they can&#039;t talk to each other, mail each other, group with each other, etc.  Some enterprising players discovered that, while the game garbled their speech for players on the opposite side, it didn&#039;t garble digits or punctuation, so someone developed a code to allow cross-faction communication.  The latest patch put an end to that.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As an addendum to what I just said, I guess the most dangerous trap to fall into when thinking about these virtual worlds is to think that they&#8217;re in any way similar to the real world, just because they have certain economic dynamics.  They&#8217;re not.  They are highly, highly artificial.  They have rules that are unlike anything in the real world.  Even their economies are highly artificial; what&#8217;s interesting about them, and John can certainly elaborate on this, is how people work within a highly stylized system, which can be tailored to fit certain economic models, to further their goals, and how they do things unanticipated by the designers.</p>

	<p>In World of Warcraft, there are two factions (the Horde and the Alliance).  Players from the two factions aren&#8217;t allowed to communicate across faction lines&#8212;they can&#8217;t talk to each other, mail each other, group with each other, etc.  Some enterprising players discovered that, while the game garbled their speech for players on the opposite side, it didn&#8217;t garble digits or punctuation, so someone developed a code to allow cross-faction communication.  The latest patch put an end to that.</p>
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		<title>By: asg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65738</link>
		<dc:creator>asg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65738</guid>
		<description>How would such regulation work?  In most of these games, unless you are on a PvP server, you can&#039;t attack other people unless they want to be attacked.  In any case, Hobbesian nightmares are surely to be expected in cases where there&#039;s no consequences for anything you do (except use hacks that can be tracked and get you banned) and you&#039;re totally anonymous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How would such regulation work?  In most of these games, unless you are on a PvP server, you can&#8217;t attack other people unless they want to be attacked.  In any case, Hobbesian nightmares are surely to be expected in cases where there&#8217;s no consequences for anything you do (except use hacks that can be tracked and get you banned) and you&#8217;re totally anonymous.</p>
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		<title>By: joel turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65736</link>
		<dc:creator>joel turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65736</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the answers... I guess I was fishing for the follow-up, which is: Is it possible, over time, for &lt;em&gt;society&lt;/em&gt; to develop within these &#039;worlds&#039; to regulate the various risks of violence/avarice, or would it be always be some Hobbesian nightmare of gore/vigilantism? Sounds like the game designers don&#039;t think it profitable to find out.

Also... does anyone wonder whether any of these embed Milgram-like experiments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for the answers&#8230; I guess I was fishing for the follow-up, which is: Is it possible, over time, for <em>society</em> to develop within these &#8216;worlds&#8217; to regulate the various risks of violence/avarice, or would it be always be some Hobbesian nightmare of gore/vigilantism? Sounds like the game designers don&#8217;t think it profitable to find out.</p>

	<p>Also&#8230; does anyone wonder whether any of these embed Milgram-like experiments?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Lastowka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65733</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Lastowka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65733</guid>
		<description>John --

Dan Hunter and I have written a brief law review article on the exact question of whether the sale could be a crime.

See http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=564801

In short, it may be criminal as a species of computer trespass, if the access to the account was unauthorized.  However, the salient question would be the calculation of damages, and the question of whether game values should be recognized as property rights held by players.

There&#039;s an interesting jurisdictional issue in this also -- our original article in the California Law Review on laws &amp; virtual worlds alludes to it, but we&#039;ll be fleshing it out more in a future article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John&#8212;<br />
Dan Hunter and I have written a brief law review article on the exact question of whether the sale could be a crime.</p>

	<p>See <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=564801" rel="nofollow">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=564801</a></p>

	<p>In short, it may be criminal as a species of computer trespass, if the access to the account was unauthorized.  However, the salient question would be the calculation of damages, and the question of whether game values should be recognized as property rights held by players.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s an interesting jurisdictional issue in this also&#8212;our original article in the California Law Review on laws &#038; virtual worlds alludes to it, but we&#8217;ll be fleshing it out more in a future article.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65730</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65730</guid>
		<description>(&quot;They&quot; being Blizzard regarding World of Warcraft in my last comment.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(&#8220;They&#8221; being Blizzard regarding World of Warcraft in my last comment.)</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65729</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65729</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;...then rape him silly&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s the one part where I&#039;m not following you.

But if your question is that there has to be an ingame transaction, and that&#039;s where the Powers That Be could intercede...well, they do.  The try to identify this activity, and when they do, they summarily close the account.  A few weeks ago, they closed 2,000 accounts for this reason.  That&#039;s $15 a month, each, that &lt;i&gt;especially&lt;/i&gt; because these &quot;players&quot; were professionals, the income was practically guaranteed.  As mentioned elsewhere, maybe you&#039;ve missed it, but employing some developing-world people to &quot;play&quot; the game to get gold and items to sell on eBay is actually a profitable business model since you get that labor for, say, $1 an hour but make a good deal more from  that labor.

But upon re-reading your comment, I think you&#039;re asking if the player community can&#039;t deal with the problem vigilante style?  Well, they really can&#039;t because most of these games are designed to prohibit that kind of game play because a surprisingly large number of people will play that game that way, doing nothing more than making other players as unhappy as possible, if they&#039;re allowed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;then rape him silly&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s the one part where I&#8217;m not following you.</p>

	<p>But if your question is that there has to be an ingame transaction, and that&#8217;s where the Powers That Be could intercede&#8230;well, they do.  The try to identify this activity, and when they do, they summarily close the account.  A few weeks ago, they closed 2,000 accounts for this reason.  That&#8217;s $15 a month, each, that <i>especially</i> because these &#8220;players&#8221; were professionals, the income was practically guaranteed.  As mentioned elsewhere, maybe you&#8217;ve missed it, but employing some developing-world people to &#8220;play&#8221; the game to get gold and items to sell on eBay is actually a profitable business model since you get that labor for, say, $1 an hour but make a good deal more from  that labor.</p>

	<p>But upon re-reading your comment, I think you&#8217;re asking if the player community can&#8217;t deal with the problem vigilante style?  Well, they really can&#8217;t because most of these games are designed to prohibit that kind of game play because a surprisingly large number of people will play that game that way, doing nothing more than making other players as unhappy as possible, if they&#8217;re allowed.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65728</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65728</guid>
		<description>joel, I was under the impression that most games either did not allow PvP (player vs player) action, or limited it to specified areas.  I think only the people with short careers as weapons dealers or the god-like, make their trades in those areas.

But lots of people do agree real world buying of in game items &lt;a href=&quot;http://penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-02-16&amp;res=l&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;is a problem&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>joel, I was under the impression that most games either did not allow PvP (player vs player) action, or limited it to specified areas.  I think only the people with short careers as weapons dealers or the god-like, make their trades in those areas.</p>

	<p>But lots of people do agree real world buying of in game items <a href="http://penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-02-16&#038;res=l" rel="nofollow">is a problem</a></p>
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		<title>By: joel turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/comment-page-1/#comment-65724</link>
		<dc:creator>joel turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/03/31/real-and-virtual-weapons/#comment-65724</guid>
		<description>Forgive me, since I have absolutely no knowledge of these games, but a question: How do these weapons get exchanged? Wouldn&#039;t you have to meet in virtual world to hand off weapon or something? If so, why wouldn&#039;t gangs of bad guys buy one cheap item from powerful weapons dealers, each--so they could establish &quot;drop&quot; site patterns, then rape him silly? That is, shouldn&#039;t there be a game-context method of dealing with someone selling this stuff on eBay? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Forgive me, since I have absolutely no knowledge of these games, but a question: How do these weapons get exchanged? Wouldn&#8217;t you have to meet in virtual world to hand off weapon or something? If so, why wouldn&#8217;t gangs of bad guys buy one cheap item from powerful weapons dealers, each&#8212;so they could establish &#8220;drop&#8221; site patterns, then rape him silly? That is, shouldn&#8217;t there be a game-context method of dealing with someone selling this stuff on eBay?</p>
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