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	<title>Comments on: Reverse Turing Tests</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: john c. halasz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67887</link>
		<dc:creator>john c. halasz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67887</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m so confused. I think I need to consult a computer simulation of a Rogerian therapist for counselling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m so confused. I think I need to consult a computer simulation of a Rogerian therapist for counselling.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67822</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67822</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t this be the occasion for a new CT category? Something like: Intellects teenie-weenie and not sympathetic either...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shouldn&#8217;t this be the occasion for a new CT category? Something like: Intellects teenie-weenie and not sympathetic either&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67789</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67789</guid>
		<description>Even more bizarre is that no reason was given for the rejection......

So when are we going to see a Dubyaism Generator?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Even more bizarre is that no reason was given for the rejection&#8230;&#8230;</p>

	<p>So when are we going to see a Dubyaism Generator?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67785</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67785</guid>
		<description>
Bizarrely, it appears the pranksters submitted two papers, and one was rejected. On the face of it, this suggests low standards rather than a complete scam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[
	<p>Bizarrely, it appears the pranksters submitted two papers, and one was rejected. On the face of it, this suggests low standards rather than a complete scam.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67784</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67784</guid>
		<description>
I suppose it&#039;s middle age, but what I like about conferences is catching up with all my &lt;b&gt;old&lt;/b&gt; friends, and reminiscing over  all the old stories from previous conferences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[
	<p>I suppose it&#8217;s middle age, but what I like about conferences is catching up with all my <b>old</b> friends, and reminiscing over  all the old stories from previous conferences.</p>
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		<title>By: Simstim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67783</link>
		<dc:creator>Simstim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67783</guid>
		<description>But aren&#039;t most academic conferences at least partly an excuse to go on a paid holiday?  I&#039;m reminded of David Lodge&#039;s &quot;Small World&quot;:

The modern conference resembles the pilgrimage of medieval Christendom in that it allows the participants to indulge themselves in all the pleasures and diversion of travel while appearing to be austerely bent on self-improvement. To be sure, there are certain penitential exercises to be performed -the presentation of a paper, perhaps, and certainly listening to the papers of others. But with this excuse you journey to new and interesting places, meet new and interesting people, and form 
new and interesting relationship with them; exchange gossip and confidences for your well-worn stories are fresh to them, and vice versa); eat, drink and make merry in their company every evening; and yet, at the end of it all, return home with an enhanced reputation for seriousness of mind. Today&#039;s conference have an additional advantage over the pilgrims of old in that their expenses are usualy paid, or at least subsidised, by the institution to which they belong, be it a government department, a commercial firm, or, most commonly perhaps, a university. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But aren&#8217;t most academic conferences at least partly an excuse to go on a paid holiday?  I&#8217;m reminded of David Lodge&#8217;s &#8220;Small World&#8221;:</p>

	<p>The modern conference resembles the pilgrimage of medieval Christendom in that it allows the participants to indulge themselves in all the pleasures and diversion of travel while appearing to be austerely bent on self-improvement. To be sure, there are certain penitential exercises to be performed -the presentation of a paper, perhaps, and certainly listening to the papers of others. But with this excuse you journey to new and interesting places, meet new and interesting people, and form<br />
new and interesting relationship with them; exchange gossip and confidences for your well-worn stories are fresh to them, and vice versa); eat, drink and make merry in their company every evening; and yet, at the end of it all, return home with an enhanced reputation for seriousness of mind. Today&#8217;s conference have an additional advantage over the pilgrims of old in that their expenses are usualy paid, or at least subsidised, by the institution to which they belong, be it a government department, a commercial firm, or, most commonly perhaps, a university.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob McGrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67782</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob McGrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67782</guid>
		<description>This conference, in particular, seems to be some sort of scam - after all, the paper was accepted &quot;without review&quot; because their reviewers turned in their reviews late.  (The Sokal paper, on the other hand, was actually peer-reviewed.)

Also, the role of conferences in CS is different from other fields - conferences usually have printed proceedings, and quality of conference publications is the first criterion for hiring and tenure at many schools.  Journals, on the other hand, usually reprint longer versions of papers that were accepted to the more prestigious conferences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This conference, in particular, seems to be some sort of scam &#8211; after all, the paper was accepted &#8220;without review&#8221; because their reviewers turned in their reviews late.  (The Sokal paper, on the other hand, was actually peer-reviewed.)</p>

	<p>Also, the role of conferences in CS is different from other fields &#8211; conferences usually have printed proceedings, and quality of conference publications is the first criterion for hiring and tenure at many schools.  Journals, on the other hand, usually reprint longer versions of papers that were accepted to the more prestigious conferences.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67780</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67780</guid>
		<description>But where is the AAP v the APA programme? I&#039;d prefer a nice Sydney holiday over one in Chicago any time of year.  The best overall conference I ever went to was CIIT2004 that just happened to be in St. Thomas..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But where is the <span class="caps">AAP</span> v the <span class="caps">APA</span> programme? I&#8217;d prefer a nice Sydney holiday over one in Chicago any time of year.  The best overall conference I ever went to was <span class="caps">CIIT2004</span> that just happened to be in St. Thomas..</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67750</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67750</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to back up what John said about refereeing for conferences in Australia. I was surprised when I got to the US that you had to have a paper accepted by a referee to get into many conferences. The main effect of this is that the conferences over in America have papers that I&#039;ve seen 12 months earlier. I&#039;m not the only one who thinks refereeing doesn&#039;t help improve conferences.

&quot;Here is a revealing comparison. For the annual meeting of the American Philosophical Association the Program Committee sifts submissions carefully and rejects 80 percent. The Australasian Association of Philosophy does not sift submissions. Yet every year the AAP program is better overall than the APA program.&quot; (Bill Lycan, Philosophy UNC) (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uq.edu.au/hprc/aap/conference.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ref&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just wanted to back up what John said about refereeing for conferences in Australia. I was surprised when I got to the US that you had to have a paper accepted by a referee to get into many conferences. The main effect of this is that the conferences over in America have papers that I&#8217;ve seen 12 months earlier. I&#8217;m not the only one who thinks refereeing doesn&#8217;t help improve conferences.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Here is a revealing comparison. For the annual meeting of the American Philosophical Association the Program Committee sifts submissions carefully and rejects 80 percent. The Australasian Association of Philosophy does not sift submissions. Yet every year the <span class="caps">AAP</span> program is better overall than the <span class="caps">APA</span> program.&#8221; (Bill Lycan, Philosophy <span class="caps">UNC</span>) (<a href="http://www.uq.edu.au/hprc/aap/conference.html" rel="nofollow">ref</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67737</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67737</guid>
		<description>That really is the funniest thing ever. Sadly, when I was at Tokyo Institute of Technology, we had one poor Doctor&#039;s student who&#039;s English made about as much sense as this. However, he was able to find monkey-typewriter journals to publish his work.

Now if someone could only write a similar algorithm for patent applications they might have something going...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That really is the funniest thing ever. Sadly, when I was at Tokyo Institute of Technology, we had one poor Doctor&#8217;s student who&#8217;s English made about as much sense as this. However, he was able to find monkey-typewriter journals to publish his work.</p>

	<p>Now if someone could only write a similar algorithm for patent applications they might have something going&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McGrattan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67731</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McGrattan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67731</guid>
		<description>Seth: For what it&#039;s worth, I suspect most academic philosophers would take about 10 seconds to identify the gibberish speaker from the &#039;deep-thinking&#039; philosopher -- although I&#039;m not sure what &#039;deep-thinking&#039; is supposed to signify here.

Re: Sokal - My understanding of the Sokal hoax was that it wasn&#039;t just that the editors of Social Text got out of their depth and accepted for publication an article that they really ought to have sent for expert refereeing but that, more generally, Sokal was drawing attention to the _routine_ use and abuse of scientific vocabulary by those who didn&#039;t really understand such vocabulary and the problem wasn&#039;t just that he personally, in his article, was misusing key scientific concepts but also that the journal wasn&#039;t particulalry concerned with whether such concepts were being used correctly at all. It wasn&#039;t just a special case of one paper slipping through the cracks. As such he was drawing attention to what he saw as a systemic problem.

Of course, we can debate whether it really _is_ (or was) a systemic problem and whether Sokal&#039;s hoax was any way to test it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seth: For what it&#8217;s worth, I suspect most academic philosophers would take about 10 seconds to identify the gibberish speaker from the &#8216;deep-thinking&#8217; philosopher&#8212;although I&#8217;m not sure what &#8216;deep-thinking&#8217; is supposed to signify here.</p>

	<p>Re: Sokal &#8211; My understanding of the Sokal hoax was that it wasn&#8217;t just that the editors of Social Text got out of their depth and accepted for publication an article that they really ought to have sent for expert refereeing but that, more generally, Sokal was drawing attention to the <em>routine</em> use and abuse of scientific vocabulary by those who didn&#8217;t really understand such vocabulary and the problem wasn&#8217;t just that he personally, in his article, was misusing key scientific concepts but also that the journal wasn&#8217;t particulalry concerned with whether such concepts were being used correctly at all. It wasn&#8217;t just a special case of one paper slipping through the cracks. As such he was drawing attention to what he saw as a systemic problem.</p>

	<p>Of course, we can debate whether it really <em>is</em> (or was) a systemic problem and whether Sokal&#8217;s hoax was any way to test it.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67700</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67700</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But I don’t think that the Sokal hoax is quite the same.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, I agree. I was just trying to stir up trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But I don&#8217;t think that the Sokal hoax is quite the same.</i></p>

	<p>Oh, I agree. I was just trying to stir up trouble.</p>
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		<title>By: TomB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67697</link>
		<dc:creator>TomB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67697</guid>
		<description>Credit should go to Jonathan &quot;Wolf&quot; Rentzsch, who told me about SCIgen. 

Also, the MIT grad students deserve credit for a very effective critique of WMSCI. It&#039;s ironic that their bogus CS paper generator is itself a pretty decent work of CS. Maybe they should submit a paper about it to a real CS conference. 

The Reverse Turing Test concept is great. Scammers like PA and WMSCI will always be susceptible to !T tests, not because they&#039;re stupid, but because their business model requires them to accept almost everything they receive. If they actually did legitimate reviewing or editing, they would be in a different niche, where they would be much less likely to succeed. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Credit should go to Jonathan &#8220;Wolf&#8221; Rentzsch, who told me about SCIgen.</p>

	<p>Also, the <span class="caps">MIT</span> grad students deserve credit for a very effective critique of <span class="caps">WMSCI</span>. It&#8217;s ironic that their bogus CS paper generator is itself a pretty decent work of CS. Maybe they should submit a paper about it to a real CS conference.</p>

	<p>The Reverse Turing Test concept is great. Scammers like PA and <span class="caps">WMSCI</span> will always be susceptible to !T tests, not because they&#8217;re stupid, but because their business model requires them to accept almost everything they receive. If they actually did legitimate reviewing or editing, they would be in a different niche, where they would be much less likely to succeed.</p>

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		<title>By: r. Waterhouse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67693</link>
		<dc:creator>r. Waterhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67693</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a little known fact that many of the most popular so called &quot;bloggers&quot; are in fact perverted copies of the ALICE chatbot, some you could probably have guessed, Instapundit, Powerline, Eschaton .. many more than most people want to know. The more disturbing thing is that it is not just bloggers who are abdicating their thought processes to software, it&#039;s a growing problem that affects many professions; academics, lawyers, legislators and business leaders have all fallen to the temptation to let their computers do the heavy lifting for them in producing verbiage. For instance it&#039;s an open secret on capitol hill that much legislation is the product of a set of word macros developed by legislative staffers, and that often bills are passed into law without being examined by a human at all. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s a little known fact that many of the most popular so called &#8220;bloggers&#8221; are in fact perverted copies of the <span class="caps">ALICE</span> chatbot, some you could probably have guessed, Instapundit, Powerline, Eschaton .. many more than most people want to know. The more disturbing thing is that it is not just bloggers who are abdicating their thought processes to software, it&#8217;s a growing problem that affects many professions; academics, lawyers, legislators and business leaders have all fallen to the temptation to let their computers do the heavy lifting for them in producing verbiage. For instance it&#8217;s an open secret on capitol hill that much legislation is the product of a set of word macros developed by legislative staffers, and that often bills are passed into law without being examined by a human at all.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-67691</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/reverse-turing-tests/#comment-67691</guid>
		<description>
I regularly get invitations to expensive conferences on very generic topics in locations like the Greek islands or Las Vegas. As Dan says, it&#039;s pretty clear what&#039;s going on here.

OTOH, refereeing papers is the exception rather than the norm for most of the genuine academic conferences I attend in Australia. Broadly speaking, you have to have a paper if you want funding to attend, and the conferences are small enough that everyone gets a turn. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[
	<p>I regularly get invitations to expensive conferences on very generic topics in locations like the Greek islands or Las Vegas. As Dan says, it&#8217;s pretty clear what&#8217;s going on here.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">OTOH</span>, refereeing papers is the exception rather than the norm for most of the genuine academic conferences I attend in Australia. Broadly speaking, you have to have a paper if you want funding to attend, and the conferences are small enough that everyone gets a turn.</p>
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