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	<title>Comments on: The right to life</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-68049</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-68049</guid>
		<description>It is my understanding that there was a boom of bastard births between about 1750 and 1850, coinciding with the first Industrial Revolution, the rise of cottage industry, and the decline of tightly regimented open-field peasant farming.

In an old-style peasant village, if she gets pregnant everyone has a pretty good idea who dad is, and the couple are pressured to marry.  Few single moms, limited pre-engagement sex because everyone knows that pregnancy=marriage, sexual relations start with engagement, and about 1/3 of all brides are pregnant.

When those social controls broke down, there were a lot more absconding dads and seductions, to the point where some estimates have about 1 birth in 3 being out of wedlock.  &quot;Victorian&quot; morality was in part an attempt to create new social pressures that would put an end to the crisis of bastardry. It worked, for a while.

So the turn of the 18th century saw a vast rise in foundlings hospitals (dying places), in baby farms (dying places), and in wet nurses including killing nurses (if you pay her when she takes on the baby, not when the baby is healthily weaned, she has an incentive to kill the child.)

In any case, I would not blame the theocrats for this one.  Save the blame for folks like Anthony Comstock who criminalized birth control.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It is my understanding that there was a boom of bastard births between about 1750 and 1850, coinciding with the first Industrial Revolution, the rise of cottage industry, and the decline of tightly regimented open-field peasant farming.</p>

	<p>In an old-style peasant village, if she gets pregnant everyone has a pretty good idea who dad is, and the couple are pressured to marry.  Few single moms, limited pre-engagement sex because everyone knows that pregnancy=marriage, sexual relations start with engagement, and about 1/3 of all brides are pregnant.</p>

	<p>When those social controls broke down, there were a lot more absconding dads and seductions, to the point where some estimates have about 1 birth in 3 being out of wedlock.  &#8220;Victorian&#8221; morality was in part an attempt to create new social pressures that would put an end to the crisis of bastardry. It worked, for a while.</p>

	<p>So the turn of the 18th century saw a vast rise in foundlings hospitals (dying places), in baby farms (dying places), and in wet nurses including killing nurses (if you pay her when she takes on the baby, not when the baby is healthily weaned, she has an incentive to kill the child.)</p>

	<p>In any case, I would not blame the theocrats for this one.  Save the blame for folks like Anthony Comstock who criminalized birth control.</p>

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		<title>By: Peggy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-68019</link>
		<dc:creator>Peggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-68019</guid>
		<description>&quot;Theocrats&quot; practiced child murder? The practices described that occurred in Victorian Britain had nothing to do with religion.  Nor does child murder today.

Seems to me that a certain infamous professor at an Ivy League university today advocates not only abortion on demand but also infantacide up to age three years if a kid turns out not to be quite perfect, and I believe he is not only a Leftist, politically, but also an atheist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Theocrats&#8221; practiced child murder? The practices described that occurred in Victorian Britain had nothing to do with religion.  Nor does child murder today.</p>

	<p>Seems to me that a certain infamous professor at an Ivy League university today advocates not only abortion on demand but also infantacide up to age three years if a kid turns out not to be quite perfect, and I believe he is not only a Leftist, politically, but also an atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67881</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67881</guid>
		<description>Fascinating, thanks.  Another ugly glimpse of the industrial revolution.  I wonder how long that practice went on.  (Suppose I could read the source.)  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fascinating, thanks.  Another ugly glimpse of the industrial revolution.  I wonder how long that practice went on.  (Suppose I could read the source.)</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67879</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67879</guid>
		<description>
Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/library/historical/artifacts/caricatures/fr6-wetnursing.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;what I was looking for&lt;/a&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;In eighteenth-century Europe, anti-wet nursing literature expressed concern for the well-being of the babies being farmed out, but not much consideration for the offspring of the wet nurses who were often neglected or even permitted to die to make way for a paying consumer&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[
	<p>Here&#8217;s <a href="http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/library/historical/artifacts/caricatures/fr6-wetnursing.cfm" rel="nofollow">what I was looking for</a> <blockquote>In eighteenth-century Europe, anti-wet nursing literature expressed concern for the well-being of the babies being farmed out, but not much consideration for the offspring of the wet nurses who were often neglected or even permitted to die to make way for a paying consumer</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67867</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67867</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t necessarily not believe it, but it&#039;s news to me.  I don&#039;t have any evidence for the opposite position either I suppose, I just thought wetnurses (like other servants) would maintain their whole families at the house of their employers, at least richer employers with big manor-houses and stuff.  Where did I get that idea?  Is that more typical of the English?  Or does anybody do that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t necessarily not believe it, but it&#8217;s news to me.  I don&#8217;t have any evidence for the opposite position either I suppose, I just thought wetnurses (like other servants) would maintain their whole families at the house of their employers, at least richer employers with big manor-houses and stuff.  Where did I get that idea?  Is that more typical of the English?  Or does anybody do that?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67800</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67800</guid>
		<description>George, the references I can find easily are all behind subscription walls, but I&#039;m pretty sure this is right, particularly in cases, as in France, where the wetnurse was expected to live with the household that employed her, and leave her baby at home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>George, the references I can find easily are all behind subscription walls, but I&#8217;m pretty sure this is right, particularly in cases, as in France, where the wetnurse was expected to live with the household that employed her, and leave her baby at home.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67760</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67760</guid>
		<description>Barry Freed writes: &quot;I have read somewhere, and in more than one text, references to old wells or sewer drains dating back to Medieval times being excavated in Europe and the resultant grisly finds of dozens of infant skeletons.&quot;

An entry in Britannica (I believe on European history) briefly refers to a case of a sewer drain in France, which was cleaned out and revealed a number of baby skeletons. I think it was supposed to have happened in the 1700s, but I&#039;m not sure. I&#039;m pretty sure it wasn&#039;t in the 20th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Barry Freed writes: &#8220;I have read somewhere, and in more than one text, references to old wells or sewer drains dating back to Medieval times being excavated in Europe and the resultant grisly finds of dozens of infant skeletons.&#8221;</p>

	<p>An entry in Britannica (I believe on European history) briefly refers to a case of a sewer drain in France, which was cleaned out and revealed a number of baby skeletons. I think it was supposed to have happened in the 1700s, but I&#8217;m not sure. I&#8217;m pretty sure it wasn&#8217;t in the 20th century.</p>
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		<title>By: James Palmer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67739</link>
		<dc:creator>James Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67739</guid>
		<description>The second or more child in China is kept ninety-percent of the time, provided they&#039;re  healthy.  Evasion of the one-child policy is very, very common, particularly in the countryside.  It&#039;s mostly the urban middle class who have only one child; the richer classes can afford to pay the fines and the lower classes are increasingly off the radar of the authorities. I&#039;ve heard estimates from Chinese sociologists that the population is between one and three hundred million higher than the official figures.  Abandoned children are, in my limited experience, mostly physically handicapped in some fashion; a perennial horror of the Chinese.

Also, this reminds me of a  joke -

Poland, a few centuries ago, and a small infant is abandoned on the doorstep of a poor nunnery.  The nuns don&#039;t have the wherewithal to care for the child themselves, but they&#039;re treating a town priest with a rich living for constipation.  Reasoning he must be a little naive about these things, they tell him that, miracle of miracles, he&#039;s pregnant, drug him unconscious, and the next day present him with a bouncing baby boy.

So, the priest goes back to his living and brings the boy with him as his adopted son.  Everyone naturally assumes he&#039;s the priest&#039;s bastard, and the boy, of course, grows up calling him &#039;Father.&#039;

Come the boy&#039;s sixteenth birthday, the priest calls him into his office.

&#039;My son, I have something important to tell you.&#039;
&#039;Yes, Father.&#039;
&#039;That&#039;s just it, son.  I&#039;m not your father.  I&#039;m your mother.  The Bishop of Krakow was your father.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The second or more child in China is kept ninety-percent of the time, provided they&#8217;re  healthy.  Evasion of the one-child policy is very, very common, particularly in the countryside.  It&#8217;s mostly the urban middle class who have only one child; the richer classes can afford to pay the fines and the lower classes are increasingly off the radar of the authorities. I&#8217;ve heard estimates from Chinese sociologists that the population is between one and three hundred million higher than the official figures.  Abandoned children are, in my limited experience, mostly physically handicapped in some fashion; a perennial horror of the Chinese.</p>

	<p>Also, this reminds me of a  joke &#8211;<br />
Poland, a few centuries ago, and a small infant is abandoned on the doorstep of a poor nunnery.  The nuns don&#8217;t have the wherewithal to care for the child themselves, but they&#8217;re treating a town priest with a rich living for constipation.  Reasoning he must be a little naive about these things, they tell him that, miracle of miracles, he&#8217;s pregnant, drug him unconscious, and the next day present him with a bouncing baby boy.</p>

	<p>So, the priest goes back to his living and brings the boy with him as his adopted son.  Everyone naturally assumes he&#8217;s the priest&#8217;s bastard, and the boy, of course, grows up calling him &#8216;Father.&#8217;</p>

	<p>Come the boy&#8217;s sixteenth birthday, the priest calls him into his office.</p>

	<p>&#8216;My son, I have something important to tell you.&#8217;<br />
&#8216;Yes, Father.&#8217;<br />
&#8216;That&#8217;s just it, son.  I&#8217;m not your father.  I&#8217;m your mother.  The Bishop of Krakow was your father.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Freed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67718</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Freed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67718</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How do twins make do?&lt;/i&gt;

Well george, to cop an old Woody Allen line:  They usually travel in pairs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>How do twins make do?</i></p>

	<p>Well george, to cop an old Woody Allen line:  They usually travel in pairs.</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67709</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67709</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard of wet nursing, but this is the first I&#039;ve heard it was detrimental to the wet nurse&#039;s own child.  Any supporting evidence?  Can&#039;t most nursing mothers produce more milk than is necessary for one child?  How do twins make do?  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve heard of wet nursing, but this is the first I&#8217;ve heard it was detrimental to the wet nurse&#8217;s own child.  Any supporting evidence?  Can&#8217;t most nursing mothers produce more milk than is necessary for one child?  How do twins make do?</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Freed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67701</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Freed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67701</guid>
		<description>A further note on ancient Arabia.

The practice of leaving infanticide via exposure was fairly common in pre-Islamic Arabia. Enough so that a prohibition against it is found in the Qur&#039;an (nb-only about 5% of the Qur&#039;anic text is legislative.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A further note on ancient Arabia.</p>

	<p>The practice of leaving infanticide via exposure was fairly common in pre-Islamic Arabia. Enough so that a prohibition against it is found in the Qur&#8217;an (nb-only about 5% of the Qur&#8217;anic text is legislative.)</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Freed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67699</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Freed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67699</guid>
		<description>I have read somewhere, and in more than one text, references to old wells or sewer drains dating back to Medieval times being excavated in Europe and the resultant grisly finds of dozens of infant skeletons.


Interestingly (well, for me at any rate), the practice of wet-nursing in ancient Arabia was quite common.  Particularly by urban people as it was considered desireable for one&#039;s child to grow up among the Bedouin as they were regarded as speaking a purer form of Arabic.  This practice became codified in Islamic law such that an infant having been breast fed by the same wet-nurse x number of times (I think it&#039;s around 6) would regard the wet-nurse as his/her milk-mother.  Hence, all relevant Islamic family law would apply (prohibition on marriage, permissibility of not covering up, etc., - not so sure though about inheritance law, I think not since that is Qur&#039;anic but I&#039;d have to check.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have read somewhere, and in more than one text, references to old wells or sewer drains dating back to Medieval times being excavated in Europe and the resultant grisly finds of dozens of infant skeletons.</p>


	<p>Interestingly (well, for me at any rate), the practice of wet-nursing in ancient Arabia was quite common.  Particularly by urban people as it was considered desireable for one&#8217;s child to grow up among the Bedouin as they were regarded as speaking a purer form of Arabic.  This practice became codified in Islamic law such that an infant having been breast fed by the same wet-nurse x number of times (I think it&#8217;s around 6) would regard the wet-nurse as his/her milk-mother.  Hence, all relevant Islamic family law would apply (prohibition on marriage, permissibility of not covering up, etc., &#8211; not so sure though about inheritance law, I think not since that is Qur&#8217;anic but I&#8217;d have to check.)</p>
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		<title>By: Renee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67698</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67698</guid>
		<description>Digamma,

I did not think or say the babies would be disposed of. The idea is to give the child up for adoption no questions asked. The main point is anonymity.

And then as now I believe some would have loved to keep their child.

There is a movie&quot;The Magdalena Sisters&quot; about an institution for &quot;fallen&quot; girls in Ireland, run by the Sisters even in late 70th 80th, it is heart wrenching.

To give up a child is  just as horrible today as it was then.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Digamma,</p>

	<p>I did not think or say the babies would be disposed of. The idea is to give the child up for adoption no questions asked. The main point is anonymity.</p>

	<p>And then as now I believe some would have loved to keep their child.</p>

	<p>There is a movie&#8221;The Magdalena Sisters&#8221; about an institution for &#8220;fallen&#8221; girls in Ireland, run by the Sisters even in late 70th 80th, it is heart wrenching.</p>

	<p>To give up a child is  just as horrible today as it was then.</p>

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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67694</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67694</guid>
		<description>
The other side of this is wet-nursing. To feed the employer&#039;s baby the wetnurse had to leave her own in the care of other family members, and without breast milk or modern formulas, the results were commonly fatal (of course, this was against a background of very high rates of infant mortalit in any case, so nothing could be proved).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[
	<p>The other side of this is wet-nursing. To feed the employer&#8217;s baby the wetnurse had to leave her own in the care of other family members, and without breast milk or modern formulas, the results were commonly fatal (of course, this was against a background of very high rates of infant mortalit in any case, so nothing could be proved).</p>
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		<title>By: jimbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/comment-page-1/#comment-67686</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/13/the-right-to-life/#comment-67686</guid>
		<description>digemma -

C&#039;mon, this is CT.  Round, here,  it&#039;s simply understood that U.S. policemen would roast the baby and serve it with a nice garlic sauce.  After all, there&#039;s only a limited supply of Iraqi and Afghan babies to go around, and U.S. servicemen tend to get the first pick...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>digemma &#8211;<br />
C&#8217;mon, this is CT.  Round, here,  it&#8217;s simply understood that U.S. policemen would roast the baby and serve it with a nice garlic sauce.  After all, there&#8217;s only a limited supply of Iraqi and Afghan babies to go around, and U.S. servicemen tend to get the first pick&#8230;</p>
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