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	<title>Comments on: Is there a link between screwdrivers and car stereo thieves?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68407</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68407</guid>
		<description>I seem to remember George Gilder singling out Bayesian statistics for abuse in one of his idiotic rants some years ago. So maybe it&#039;s not surprising that social conservatives have trouble getting their conditional probabilities the right way around. I wonder what functional&#039;s excuse is though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I seem to remember George Gilder singling out Bayesian statistics for abuse in one of his idiotic rants some years ago. So maybe it&#8217;s not surprising that social conservatives have trouble getting their conditional probabilities the right way around. I wonder what functional&#8217;s excuse is though.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68382</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68382</guid>
		<description>Functional: the figure is obviously not relevant to the original question &quot;Is There a Link between Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse?&quot;

(Even when it comes to the acceptance policy of the Boy Scouts -- I presume you mean the Boy Scouts _of America_ -- I&#039;m not sure that this figure means their policy is rational. Does the organization reject all white males because (as jet said) most serial killers are white males?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Functional: the figure is obviously not relevant to the original question &#8220;Is There a Link between Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse?&#8221;</p>

	<p>(Even when it comes to the acceptance policy of the Boy Scouts&#8212;I presume you mean the Boy Scouts <em>of America</em>&#8212;I&#8217;m not sure that this figure means their policy is rational. Does the organization reject all white males because (as jet said) most serial killers are white males?)</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68373</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68373</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.” &lt;/i&gt;


Why is that figure not relevant?  If it turned out that 100% of all molestations of boys were committed by adult females -- i.e., &lt;i&gt;none&lt;/i&gt; by adult male homosexuals -- that would be a very different scenario.  It would be a good argument, for example, against the Boy Scouts&#039; policy on adult male homosexuals.  But if most molestations of young boys are committed by adult male homosexuals, then the Boy Scouts&#039; policy looks like a rational (even if overdone) response to liability issues.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.&#8221; </i></p>


	<p>Why is that figure not relevant?  If it turned out that 100% of all molestations of boys were committed by adult females&#8212;i.e., <i>none</i> by adult male homosexuals&#8212;that would be a very different scenario.  It would be a good argument, for example, against the Boy Scouts&#8217; policy on adult male homosexuals.  But if most molestations of young boys are committed by adult male homosexuals, then the Boy Scouts&#8217; policy looks like a rational (even if overdone) response to liability issues.</p>
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		<title>By: nofundy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68364</link>
		<dc:creator>nofundy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68364</guid>
		<description>Most violent crimes are committed by bread eaters shortly after consumption of the product. Therefore, eating bread contributes to violent crime and should be made illegal.

Are the Dobson acolytes concerned about the homosexual activity and gang rape committed in our wonderful prison systems as well?  I&#039;m thinking incarceration promotes homosexuality and therefore must be eliminated if we are to preserve our christian heritage. Who&#039;s with me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Most violent crimes are committed by bread eaters shortly after consumption of the product. Therefore, eating bread contributes to violent crime and should be made illegal.</p>

	<p>Are the Dobson acolytes concerned about the homosexual activity and gang rape committed in our wonderful prison systems as well?  I&#8217;m thinking incarceration promotes homosexuality and therefore must be eliminated if we are to preserve our christian heritage. Who&#8217;s with me?</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68363</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68363</guid>
		<description>Damn it dsquared, that got coffee all over my monitor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Damn it dsquared, that got coffee all over my monitor.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68320</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68320</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If someone’s primary sexual activity is screwing goats, you don’t ask whether the goats are male or female to determine whether the person is “straight” or “gay”.&lt;/i&gt;

I can see you&#039;re not Welsh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If someone&#8217;s primary sexual activity is screwing goats, you don&#8217;t ask whether the goats are male or female to determine whether the person is &#8220;straight&#8221; or &#8220;gay&#8221;.</i></p>

	<p>I can see you&#8217;re not Welsh.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68307</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68307</guid>
		<description>Ted:  Note also &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/mens.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;one study&lt;/a&gt; in which 98% of male pedophiles apparently self-identified as heterosexual.  I have no idea of this study&#039;s validity, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ted:  Note also <a href="http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/mens.html" rel="nofollow">one study</a> in which 98% of male pedophiles apparently self-identified as heterosexual.  I have no idea of this study&#8217;s validity, however.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68274</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68274</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’d probably retort with something like we don’t condemn being a white male because most serial killers are white males. &lt;/i&gt;

Well, &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; don&#039;t and maybe you don&#039;t but maybe you&#039;ve run across the phrase &#039;testosterone poisoning&#039; thrown about?  Or maybe Maureen Dowd&#039;s treatise on the pathetic, endangered state of t he Y-chromosome?

&lt;i&gt;Since most people who molest boys are men, and most people who molest girls are men, isn’t the problem . . . men . . . ? We should just tell children to keep their distance . . .&lt;/i&gt;

Many people have, haven&#039;t they (though perhaps less now than during the &#039;satanic preschool child abuse&#039; panics of 15 years ago).

Here&#039;s the thing.  It&#039;s all semantics.  In some obvious sense &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; male abusers of boys are &#039;gay&#039; because...duh...they&#039;re having sex with males.  But we can&#039;t have that because, although heaping abuse and derision on males &lt;i&gt;in general&lt;/i&gt; is generally OK among left-leaners, doing so to &lt;i&gt;gays&lt;/i&gt; is not OK (they are, of course, a protected minority).  So we must change the semantics--men who have sex with boys arent &#039;gay&#039; and therefore gays, by definition, don&#039;t abuse boys.  Of course the religious right come at it from the opposite point of view--if they can blame pedophilia mostly on gays, then they&#039;re happy.

But of course what actually matters is that an extremely small percentage of males of any sexual orientation are abusers (or serial killers for that matter).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I&#8217;d probably retort with something like we don&#8217;t condemn being a white male because most serial killers are white males. </i></p>

	<p>Well, <i>I</i> don&#8217;t and maybe you don&#8217;t but maybe you&#8217;ve run across the phrase &#8216;testosterone poisoning&#8217; thrown about?  Or maybe Maureen Dowd&#8217;s treatise on the pathetic, endangered state of t he Y-chromosome?</p>

	<p><i>Since most people who molest boys are men, and most people who molest girls are men, isn&#8217;t the problem . . . men . . . ? We should just tell children to keep their distance . . .</i></p>

	<p>Many people have, haven&#8217;t they (though perhaps less now than during the &#8216;satanic preschool child abuse&#8217; panics of 15 years ago).</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s the thing.  It&#8217;s all semantics.  In some obvious sense <i>all</i> male abusers of boys are &#8216;gay&#8217; because&#8230;duh&#8230;they&#8217;re having sex with males.  But we can&#8217;t have that because, although heaping abuse and derision on males <i>in general</i> is generally OK among left-leaners, doing so to <i>gays</i> is not <span class="caps">OK </span>(they are, of course, a protected minority).  So we must change the semantics&#8212;men who have sex with boys arent &#8216;gay&#8217; and therefore gays, by definition, don&#8217;t abuse boys.  Of course the religious right come at it from the opposite point of view&#8212;if they can blame pedophilia mostly on gays, then they&#8217;re happy.</p>

	<p>But of course what actually matters is that an extremely small percentage of males of any sexual orientation are abusers (or serial killers for that matter).</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68259</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68259</guid>
		<description>Apropos of Miss Grundy, I recall that (the American feminist) Charlotte Perkins Gilman carried a revolver with her when on lecture tours.  A gentleman of her acquaintance protested that she shouldn&#039;t be protecting herself but should rather rely on men, her natural protectors.  &quot;But my natural protectors are why I carry the revolver,&quot; she answered.

(Quoted from memory; anyone got her autobiography handy?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Apropos of Miss Grundy, I recall that (the American feminist) Charlotte Perkins Gilman carried a revolver with her when on lecture tours.  A gentleman of her acquaintance protested that she shouldn&#8217;t be protecting herself but should rather rely on men, her natural protectors.  &#8220;But my natural protectors are why I carry the revolver,&#8221; she answered.</p>

	<p>(Quoted from memory; anyone got her autobiography handy?)</p>
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		<title>By: missgrundy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68256</link>
		<dc:creator>missgrundy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68256</guid>
		<description>Agreed, c.j.  Since most people who molest boys are men, and most people who molest girls are men, isn&#039;t the problem . . . men . . . ?  We should just tell children to keep their distance . . . </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Agreed, c.j.  Since most people who molest boys are men, and most people who molest girls are men, isn&#8217;t the problem . . . men . . . ?  We should just tell children to keep their distance . . .</p>
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		<title>By: C.J.Colucci</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68250</link>
		<dc:creator>C.J.Colucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68250</guid>
		<description>  When are women going to step up to the plate and do their fair share?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When are women going to step up to the plate and do their fair share?</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68237</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68237</guid>
		<description>This is actually NOT a stupid question.  Most surveys of instances of child molestation have found that male molesters of male children are typically not &quot;homosexual&quot; in any conventional sense (i.e. pursuing relationships with adult males).  And that&#039;s important because the proportion of instances of child molestation that involve male-male contact is much higher than the proportion of gay men in the population.  Those two facts are used by conservatives to claim that gay men are more likely than other men to molest children; the reason they&#039;re wrong about that is precisely because, in fact, the overwhelming majority of male molesters of male children are not &quot;gay&quot; in the colloquial sense. The survey result is probably the result of men whose primary sexual attraction is to young boys (though they may be heterosexual or, more likely, totally asexual, in their relationships with adults) concluding that they must, therefore, be &quot;gay&quot; (since it is, after all, *boys* they&#039;re attracted to--the conservative argument). But psychologists  and social scientists tend to regard pedophilia as, in a sense, a separate orientation of its own.  If someone&#039;s primary sexual activity is screwing goats, you don&#039;t ask whether the goats are male or female to determine whether the person is &quot;straight&quot; or &quot;gay&quot;.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is actually <span class="caps">NOT</span> a stupid question.  Most surveys of instances of child molestation have found that male molesters of male children are typically not &#8220;homosexual&#8221; in any conventional sense (i.e. pursuing relationships with adult males).  And that&#8217;s important because the proportion of instances of child molestation that involve male-male contact is much higher than the proportion of gay men in the population.  Those two facts are used by conservatives to claim that gay men are more likely than other men to molest children; the reason they&#8217;re wrong about that is precisely because, in fact, the overwhelming majority of male molesters of male children are not &#8220;gay&#8221; in the colloquial sense. The survey result is probably the result of men whose primary sexual attraction is to young boys (though they may be heterosexual or, more likely, totally asexual, in their relationships with adults) concluding that they must, therefore, be &#8220;gay&#8221; (since it is, after all, <strong>boys</strong> they&#8217;re attracted to&#8212;the conservative argument). But psychologists  and social scientists tend to regard pedophilia as, in a sense, a separate orientation of its own.  If someone&#8217;s primary sexual activity is screwing goats, you don&#8217;t ask whether the goats are male or female to determine whether the person is &#8220;straight&#8221; or &#8220;gay&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: C.S.Strowbridge</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68232</link>
		<dc:creator>C.S.Strowbridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68232</guid>
		<description>Saw a &#039;survey&#039; that tried to prove gays were molesting kids. Any gay man who had sex with a woman, just one, was considered not gay. While a child molested could be completely hetrosexual, married for 20 years, had sex with a dozens of women, molested a hundred girls, but if had sex with one boy he&#039;s 100% gay. 

Well, if you manipulate the data like that you can come up with any conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Saw a &#8216;survey&#8217; that tried to prove gays were molesting kids. Any gay man who had sex with a woman, just one, was considered not gay. While a child molested could be completely hetrosexual, married for 20 years, had sex with a dozens of women, molested a hundred girls, but if had sex with one boy he&#8217;s 100% gay.</p>

	<p>Well, if you manipulate the data like that you can come up with any conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68230</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/#comment-68230</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, IMHO, the &lt;em&gt;question&lt;/em&gt; is not stupid at all. I&#039;m interested in the question of how male child molestors who molest boys define their sexual identity. I would have guessed that they&#039;d largely call themselves homosexual, but I obviously don&#039;t know until someone does the research. 

I&#039;m also interested in their sexual relationships, if any, with adult men and women. This doesn&#039;t seem to be a question that Erickson asked. From &lt;a href=&quot;http://surge.ods.org/idle_other/myths_ab.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greg Merek&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Unfortunately, Erickson et al. did not report the actual number associated with this percentage (based on their data, the number appears to be approximately 54 out of 229 child molesters studied, or 24%).  Nor did they differentiate homosexual from bisexual men, or report how many of the so-called homosexual men were heterosexually married (although some apparently were, based on the authors&#039; other comments).  Of critical importance is the fact that the authors did not determine if the self-reported homosexual and bisexual men were involved in homosexual relationships with adults of the same sex, or whether the self-applied labels were used to describe the gender of their under-age victi ms (in Groth and Birnbaum&#039;s [1978] terminology, whether they were fixated).&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What&#039;s ludicrous is to take this study as evidence that we should beware of gay men because they&#039;re likely to be child predators. That&#039;s absolutely not an inference that can be drawn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Incidentally, <span class="caps">IMHO</span>, the <em>question</em> is not stupid at all. I&#8217;m interested in the question of how male child molestors who molest boys define their sexual identity. I would have guessed that they&#8217;d largely call themselves homosexual, but I obviously don&#8217;t know until someone does the research.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m also interested in their sexual relationships, if any, with adult men and women. This doesn&#8217;t seem to be a question that Erickson asked. From <a href="http://surge.ods.org/idle_other/myths_ab.htm" rel="nofollow">Greg Merek</a>:</p>

	<p><blockquote>&#8220;Unfortunately, Erickson et al. did not report the actual number associated with this percentage (based on their data, the number appears to be approximately 54 out of 229 child molesters studied, or 24%).  Nor did they differentiate homosexual from bisexual men, or report how many of the so-called homosexual men were heterosexually married (although some apparently were, based on the authors&#8217; other comments).  Of critical importance is the fact that the authors did not determine if the self-reported homosexual and bisexual men were involved in homosexual relationships with adults of the same sex, or whether the self-applied labels were used to describe the gender of their under-age victi ms (in Groth and Birnbaum&#8217;s [1978] terminology, whether they were fixated).&#8221;</blockquote></p>

	<p>What&#8217;s ludicrous is to take this study as evidence that we should beware of gay men because they&#8217;re likely to be child predators. That&#8217;s absolutely not an inference that can be drawn.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/is-there-a-link-between-car-stereo-thieves-and-screwdrivers/comment-page-1/#comment-68229</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ted,
Oh no, I&#039;m agreeing with you fully.  It&#039;s just their language is quite noxious, and I like to see it discussed in more negative terms :P  But I should apologize for my post, as I should not presume to advise someone else&#039;s blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ted,<br />
Oh no, I&#8217;m agreeing with you fully.  It&#8217;s just their language is quite noxious, and I like to see it discussed in more negative terms :P  But I should apologize for my post, as I should not presume to advise someone else&#8217;s blog.</p>
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