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	<title>Comments on: Oxyrhynchus Papyri Deciphered</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Bistroist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-69117</link>
		<dc:creator>Bistroist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-69117</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism//Posts/00000170.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here you go.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism//Posts/00000170.html" rel="nofollow">Here you go.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Rittenberg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-69109</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald Rittenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-69109</guid>
		<description>Can anyone shed additional light on the validity of the startling account in the initial Independent article? I can&#039;t seem to find any factual follow-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Can anyone shed additional light on the validity of the startling account in the initial Independent article? I can&#8217;t seem to find any factual follow-up.</p>
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		<title>By: language hat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68641</link>
		<dc:creator>language hat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68641</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Jeez, Des, there are other things in the world besides Princessin.&lt;/i&gt;

Tsk, that&#039;s &quot;princessor,&quot; takk.  And Des is just engaged in his favorite pastime of taking the piss out of everything that is not related to princessor.  The rest of the philistines can be ignored; if they want to turn up their collective nose at Dead White Males, it&#039;s their loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Jeez, Des, there are other things in the world besides Princessin.</i></p>

	<p>Tsk, that&#8217;s &#8220;princessor,&#8221; takk.  And Des is just engaged in his favorite pastime of taking the piss out of everything that is not related to princessor.  The rest of the philistines can be ignored; if they want to turn up their collective nose at Dead White Males, it&#8217;s their loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Simstim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68601</link>
		<dc:creator>Simstim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68601</guid>
		<description>Bistroist: Yes, Western society still has legitimation-through-history but these, as in the &quot;olden days&quot;, are politicised-popularised-narrativised histories that rarely match those of current scholars.

Colin: First point taken, although I&#039;d talking about hegemonic/dominant/popular segments of hegemonic/dominant societies rather than a monolithic totality.  I also have nothing against reading old stuff for new ideas, it&#039;s just that it doesn&#039;t really matter where the old stuff comes from, it&#039;s the ideas that matter.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bistroist: Yes, Western society still has legitimation-through-history but these, as in the &#8220;olden days&#8221;, are politicised-popularised-narrativised histories that rarely match those of current scholars.</p>

	<p>Colin: First point taken, although I&#8217;d talking about hegemonic/dominant/popular segments of hegemonic/dominant societies rather than a monolithic totality.  I also have nothing against reading old stuff for new ideas, it&#8217;s just that it doesn&#8217;t really matter where the old stuff comes from, it&#8217;s the ideas that matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Danby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68536</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Danby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2005 02:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68536</guid>
		<description>I tend to think the category &quot;modern Western society&quot; is bollocks too if we mean that there exists a single coherent object of analysis that we can apply adjectives to.

Nor is it even necessarily a question of a &quot;changed understanding of the ancient Greeks&quot; but of better ways to understand the world.  Think of the Book of Exodus.  It&#039;s certainly a window into a particular historical past, but it has also been a powerful tool for thinking about slavery in more recent periods.  Then think of Oedipus, Plato&#039;s Republic, Sappho&#039;s love poetry, all tools for thought ... do people go to see King Lear only out of an antiquarian interest in Elizabethan England?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I tend to think the category &#8220;modern Western society&#8221; is bollocks too if we mean that there exists a single coherent object of analysis that we can apply adjectives to.</p>

	<p>Nor is it even necessarily a question of a &#8220;changed understanding of the ancient Greeks&#8221; but of better ways to understand the world.  Think of the Book of Exodus.  It&#8217;s certainly a window into a particular historical past, but it has also been a powerful tool for thinking about slavery in more recent periods.  Then think of Oedipus, Plato&#8217;s Republic, Sappho&#8217;s love poetry, all tools for thought &#8230; do people go to see King Lear only out of an antiquarian interest in Elizabethan England?</p>
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		<title>By: Bistroist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68483</link>
		<dc:creator>Bistroist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68483</guid>
		<description>Ah yes, but the White Album wasn&#039;t used to justify spreading democracy in the Middle East, was it?

The theory of Democratic Peace was, and a brief glance at the ancient Greeks would swiftly debunk that theory...

I agree with you up to a point. Much, probably most, of what is likely to be discovered will be relevant mainly to us geeks. But there is still the possibility that something will turn up of interest to the average layperson.

Western society can be characterised as ahistorical in some ways, yes, but political decisions are still &quot;framed&quot; and justified through historical references. As such, a deeper understanding of history can only work to our advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah yes, but the White Album wasn&#8217;t used to justify spreading democracy in the Middle East, was it?</p>

	<p>The theory of Democratic Peace was, and a brief glance at the ancient Greeks would swiftly debunk that theory&#8230;</p>

	<p>I agree with you up to a point. Much, probably most, of what is likely to be discovered will be relevant mainly to us geeks. But there is still the possibility that something will turn up of interest to the average layperson.</p>

	<p>Western society can be characterised as ahistorical in some ways, yes, but political decisions are still &#8220;framed&#8221; and justified through historical references. As such, a deeper understanding of history can only work to our advantage.</p>
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		<title>By: Simstim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68417</link>
		<dc:creator>Simstim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68417</guid>
		<description>OK, I&#039;ll grant that in a culture that values history/tradition etc. then a changed understanding of history does have a wider effect, but we are suggesting that in modern Western society, a society that can be characterised as ahistorical, presentist or futurist, a changed understanding of the ancient Greeks is not going change much else outside of academia.  Frankly, the discovery of an unknown Beatles album would have more of an impact and even that&#039;s ancient history to most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, I&#8217;ll grant that in a culture that values history/tradition etc. then a changed understanding of history does have a wider effect, but we are suggesting that in modern Western society, a society that can be characterised as ahistorical, presentist or futurist, a changed understanding of the ancient Greeks is not going change much else outside of academia.  Frankly, the discovery of an unknown Beatles album would have more of an impact and even that&#8217;s ancient history to most.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68378</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68378</guid>
		<description>In ancient Chinese studies archeological discoveries of this type during the last century had massive influences on the understanding of Chinese history and culture. China is still more culturalist and traditionalist than we are, so these discoveries evn had real-world political consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In ancient Chinese studies archeological discoveries of this type during the last century had massive influences on the understanding of Chinese history and culture. China is still more culturalist and traditionalist than we are, so these discoveries evn had real-world political consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: Bistroist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68332</link>
		<dc:creator>Bistroist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68332</guid>
		<description>Oh, one last thing: Andrew Leonard has a quite good column on this at Salon.com.
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/leon/2005/04/19/classics/

Right. I&#039;ll shut up now.

(/delurk)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, one last thing: Andrew Leonard has a quite good column on this at Salon.com.<br />
<a href="http://www.salon.com/tech/col/leon/2005/04/19/classics/" rel="nofollow">http://www.salon.com/tech/col/leon/2005/04/19/classics/</a></p>

	<p>Right. I&#8217;ll shut up now.</p>

	<p>(/delurk)</p>
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		<title>By: Bistroist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68331</link>
		<dc:creator>Bistroist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68331</guid>
		<description>Typo&#039;s en masse in the above, I&#039;m afraid, bear with me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Typo&#8217;s en masse in the above, I&#8217;m afraid, bear with me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bistroist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68330</link>
		<dc:creator>Bistroist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68330</guid>
		<description>Though I&#039;m a bit sceptic about how much new text will eventually come out of this, I&#039;d just like to point out, esp. to those who would write out this whole thing off as irrelevant, that many of the texts we find siginificant today have only been rediscovered quite recently, eg. Angelo Mais discoveries in palimpsest of the 19th century, or the Nag Hammadi manuscripts of the 20th.

And I hope
&lt;i&gt;&quot;There’s nothing wrong about finding out more about the past, just that it doesn’t have much of an effect beyond finding out more about the past.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
was a deliberate flamebait, not a genuine display of ignorance... :p</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Though I&#8217;m a bit sceptic about how much new text will eventually come out of this, I&#8217;d just like to point out, esp. to those who would write out this whole thing off as irrelevant, that many of the texts we find siginificant today have only been rediscovered quite recently, eg. Angelo Mais discoveries in palimpsest of the 19th century, or the Nag Hammadi manuscripts of the 20th.</p>

	<p>And I hope<br />
<i>&#8220;There&#8217;s nothing wrong about finding out more about the past, just that it doesn&#8217;t have much of an effect beyond finding out more about the past.&#8221;</i><br />
was a deliberate flamebait, not a genuine display of ignorance&#8230; :p</p>
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		<title>By: Simstim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68326</link>
		<dc:creator>Simstim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68326</guid>
		<description>Andrew Boucher: not news to me, see my comment above about warranted pessimism (and in any case, I thought consistency was a virtue?)  I&#039;d be interested if any of these new finds manage to say something new about any of the sub-fields that I&#039;m interested in and even here I suspect that I&#039;m being more excited than the vast majority of scholars, let alone lay people.  A cliche, but it&#039;s not pessimism, rather, it&#039;s realism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Andrew Boucher: not news to me, see my comment above about warranted pessimism (and in any case, I thought consistency was a virtue?)  I&#8217;d be interested if any of these new finds manage to say something new about any of the sub-fields that I&#8217;m interested in and even here I suspect that I&#8217;m being more excited than the vast majority of scholars, let alone lay people.  A cliche, but it&#8217;s not pessimism, rather, it&#8217;s realism.</p>
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		<title>By: Belle Waring</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68303</link>
		<dc:creator>Belle Waring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68303</guid>
		<description>aaron, um, so it is. changed that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>aaron, um, so it is. changed that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68300</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68300</guid>
		<description>Yes, that really wasn&#039;t very well phrased, was it. To avoid both that problem and Mr. Emerson&#039;s may I say &quot;East Asia rather than West Asia&quot; instead? ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, that really wasn&#8217;t very well phrased, was it. To avoid both that problem and Mr. Emerson&#8217;s may I say &#8220;East Asia rather than West Asia&#8221; instead? ;)</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/comment-page-1/#comment-68297</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/18/oxyrhynchus-papyrii-deciphered/#comment-68297</guid>
		<description>Palestine no longer exists, if it ever did.

(/flamebait)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Palestine no longer exists, if it ever did.</p>

	<p>(/flamebait)</p>
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