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	<title>Comments on: Two decisions, not one</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69830</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69830</guid>
		<description>RS &quot;&lt;i&gt;Fortunately the legality of an action has minimal impact upon its morality&lt;/i&gt;.&quot;

Doesn&#039;t this sort of &lt;a href=&quot;http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/04/whose-hemisphere-is-it-anyway.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;thing&lt;/a&gt; call into question that statement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">RS </span>&#8220;<i>Fortunately the legality of an action has minimal impact upon its morality</i>.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Doesn&#8217;t this sort of <a href="http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/04/whose-hemisphere-is-it-anyway.html" rel="nofollow">thing</a> call into question that statement?</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69611</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69611</guid>
		<description>Last comment to a dying thread, prompted by mpowell: this whole thing reminds me of Eric Alterman&#039;s work When Presidents Lie.  I&#039;m no fan of Alterman, but his book is a reasonably balanced account of the consequences of deception, whether for &quot;bad&quot; purposes (LBJ) or &quot;good&quot; (FDR).  (Whether Reagan falls into the first or second category is still being worked out.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Last comment to a dying thread, prompted by mpowell: this whole thing reminds me of Eric Alterman&#8217;s work When Presidents Lie.  I&#8217;m no fan of Alterman, but his book is a reasonably balanced account of the consequences of deception, whether for &#8220;bad&#8221; purposes (LBJ) or &#8220;good&#8221; (FDR).  (Whether Reagan falls into the first or second category is still being worked out.)</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69519</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69519</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if you can defend decision number 2, but this is not the first time we&#039;ve seen this.  I think any time a leader takes actions that he should know will lead to war, but claims otherwise to his public, he is engaging in this kind of deception.  Both the Wilson and FDR administrations did this before WWI and WWII.  History has been rather kind to these leader&#039;s reputations, however.  Perhaps it is the case that we feel the end does justify the means.  Remember, although Blair may technically have the power to chose to go to war in Iraq, it may prove impossible in practice w/ too much public opposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure if you can defend decision number 2, but this is not the first time we&#8217;ve seen this.  I think any time a leader takes actions that he should know will lead to war, but claims otherwise to his public, he is engaging in this kind of deception.  Both the Wilson and <span class="caps">FDR</span> administrations did this before <span class="caps">WWI</span> and <span class="caps">WWII</span>.  History has been rather kind to these leader&#8217;s reputations, however.  Perhaps it is the case that we feel the end does justify the means.  Remember, although Blair may technically have the power to chose to go to war in Iraq, it may prove impossible in practice w/ too much public opposition.</p>
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		<title>By: Elliott Oti</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69465</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott Oti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69465</guid>
		<description>&quot;This explains why “everyone” predicted WMD’s,&quot;

&quot;Everyone&quot; did no such thing, with respect to nuclear capacity. Secret services do not publish newsletters about their findings: they communicate them to their governments. The governments of France and Germany did not talk or act like Saddam had nukes (and being geographically closer to Iraq had more reason to worry if that were the case. In countries with pro-war governments such as the UK and Denmark and even the US there was a spate of unprecedented leaks in late 2002\early 2003 from current and former members of the intelligence services displeased with their governments&#039; presentation and interpretation of the available evidence. 

Chemical weapons are another matter entirely; the surprise at not finding even one chemical warhead genuinely surprised most observers, including the Coalition which, faced with a paucity of evidence for real WMD in 2003, decided to fudge the issue by broadening the definition of WMD to include first chemical and biological weapons, and when no sign of even these turned up, &lt;i&gt;the desire&lt;/i&gt; to manufacture them at some unspecified point in the future. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;This explains why &#8220;everyone&#8221; predicted <span class="caps">WMD</span>&#8217;s,&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;Everyone&#8221; did no such thing, with respect to nuclear capacity. Secret services do not publish newsletters about their findings: they communicate them to their governments. The governments of France and Germany did not talk or act like Saddam had nukes (and being geographically closer to Iraq had more reason to worry if that were the case. In countries with pro-war governments such as the UK and Denmark and even the US there was a spate of unprecedented leaks in late 2002early 2003 from current and former members of the intelligence services displeased with their governments&#8217; presentation and interpretation of the available evidence.</p>

	<p>Chemical weapons are another matter entirely; the surprise at not finding even one chemical warhead genuinely surprised most observers, including the Coalition which, faced with a paucity of evidence for real <span class="caps">WMD</span> in 2003, decided to fudge the issue by broadening the definition of <span class="caps">WMD</span> to include first chemical and biological weapons, and when no sign of even these turned up, <i>the desire</i> to manufacture them at some unspecified point in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Kosh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69437</link>
		<dc:creator>Kosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69437</guid>
		<description>Lying comes as naturally to those in the Bush administration as breathing does for most folks.  The &quot;normal rules of discourse&quot; don&#039;t apply here.  But they&#039;re lying to you for your own good.  No, really!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lying comes as naturally to those in the Bush administration as breathing does for most folks.  The &#8220;normal rules of discourse&#8221; don&#8217;t apply here.  But they&#8217;re lying to you for your own good.  No, really!</p>
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		<title>By: KCinDC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69434</link>
		<dc:creator>KCinDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69434</guid>
		<description>George W. Bush, State of the Union address, January 29, 2003:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;We will consult, but let there be no misunderstanding: If Saddam Hussein does not fully disarm for the safety of our people, and for the peace of the world, we will lead a coalition to disarm him.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, by the strict rules of logic that does not imply that the US won&#039;t invade if Saddam does disarm, but it certainly implies it by the normal rules of discourse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>George W. Bush, State of the Union address, January 29, 2003:</p>

	<p><blockquote><i>We will consult, but let there be no misunderstanding: If Saddam Hussein does not fully disarm for the safety of our people, and for the peace of the world, we will lead a coalition to disarm him.</i></blockquote></p>

	<p>Now, by the strict rules of logic that does not imply that the US won&#8217;t invade if Saddam does disarm, but it certainly implies it by the normal rules of discourse.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69427</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69427</guid>
		<description>&quot;While most people held a fairly high subjective probability before December 2002 that Saddam had lots of WMDs&quot;

It is very important to recognize the cost/benefit analysis here. If an analyst or diplomat or politician were to say Saddam might have WMD&#039;s, and were to be proven wrong, there would have been little or no career consequences, as we have seen. OTOH, if an analyst, without absolute certainty, were to say Saddam had no WMD&#039;s, and then WMD&#039;s were discovered or even used, a career would likely have been ended.

This explains why &quot;everyone&quot; predicted WMD&#039;s, and an even marginally useful press should have noted this bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;While most people held a fairly high subjective probability before December 2002 that Saddam had lots of WMDs&#8221;</p>

	<p>It is very important to recognize the cost/benefit analysis here. If an analyst or diplomat or politician were to say Saddam might have <span class="caps">WMD</span>&#8217;s, and were to be proven wrong, there would have been little or no career consequences, as we have seen. <span class="caps">OTOH</span>, if an analyst, without absolute certainty, were to say Saddam had no <span class="caps">WMD</span>&#8217;s, and then <span class="caps">WMD</span>&#8217;s were discovered or even used, a career would likely have been ended.</p>

	<p>This explains why &#8220;everyone&#8221; predicted <span class="caps">WMD</span>&#8217;s, and an even marginally useful press should have noted this bias.</p>
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		<title>By: ktheintz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69422</link>
		<dc:creator>ktheintz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69422</guid>
		<description>We didn&#039;t go to war because Iraq had WMDs. We went to war because the inspectors were on the verge of finding that he didn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We didn&#8217;t go to war because Iraq had WMDs. We went to war because the inspectors were on the verge of finding that he didn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69420</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69420</guid>
		<description>&quot;Err, isn’t war for regime change illegal?&quot;

Fortunately the legality of an action has minimal impact upon its morality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Err, isn&#8217;t war for regime change illegal?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Fortunately the legality of an action has minimal impact upon its morality.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69419</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69419</guid>
		<description>Excellent comment, Brian. I can&#039;t add anything to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Excellent comment, Brian. I can&#8217;t add anything to that.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69417</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69417</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think you’re misstating the consensus on Iraq’s WMDs. Everybody did think he had them.&lt;/i&gt;

One additional lyaer of deception here -- admittedly one that can&#039;t really be laid at Bush/Blair&#039;s feet -- is the inherently dishonest nature of the term WMD. nuclear weapons in Saddam&#039;s hands might be a legitimate basis for war; chemical weapons -- which haven&#039;t been used on a batlefield in 90 years for a &lt;b&gt;reason&lt;/b&gt; -- would certainly not be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I think you&#8217;re misstating the consensus on Iraq&#8217;s WMDs. Everybody did think he had them.</i></p>

	<p>One additional lyaer of deception here&#8212;admittedly one that can&#8217;t really be laid at Bush/Blair&#8217;s feet&#8212;is the inherently dishonest nature of the term <span class="caps">WMD</span>. nuclear weapons in Saddam&#8217;s hands might be a legitimate basis for war; chemical weapons&#8212;which haven&#8217;t been used on a batlefield in 90 years for a <b>reason</b>&#8212;would certainly not be.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69415</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69415</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure why anyone should even _care_ whether Bush and Blair knew that what they were saying was false. It seems a perfectly reasonable rule that when you are trying to take a country to war, you are strictly liable for the truth of the reasons you give. Even if you had perfectly good grounds to believe those reasons, I don&#039;t think that should be a sufficient excuse given the magnitude of the action being contemplated. My rule is that any politician who takes their country to war on false premises, even false premises sincerely and reasonably believed, should lose their job.

Most of this dispute has the pro-war side treating the act of giving the reasons for war as like the act of giving a casual friend advice on a basically irrelevant matter - as long as you don&#039;t knowingly lie it&#039;s all OK. And some of the anti-war side, either out of politeness or because they agree, say that no no it&#039;s more like the act of a company director giving advice on a small financial matter. I&#039;m sure much of that is that people are in this case certain that Bush and Blair don&#039;t meet even that lower standard. But there is some interest I think in getting the standard right.

Of course my rule will mean that some well-intentioned politicians will lose their jobs through no fault of their own. But when we go to war based on false reasons, many soldiers and civilians lose their lives through no fault of their own, so I&#039;m not going to grieve for the unemployed pollies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure why anyone should even <em>care</em> whether Bush and Blair knew that what they were saying was false. It seems a perfectly reasonable rule that when you are trying to take a country to war, you are strictly liable for the truth of the reasons you give. Even if you had perfectly good grounds to believe those reasons, I don&#8217;t think that should be a sufficient excuse given the magnitude of the action being contemplated. My rule is that any politician who takes their country to war on false premises, even false premises sincerely and reasonably believed, should lose their job.</p>

	<p>Most of this dispute has the pro-war side treating the act of giving the reasons for war as like the act of giving a casual friend advice on a basically irrelevant matter &#8211; as long as you don&#8217;t knowingly lie it&#8217;s all OK. And some of the anti-war side, either out of politeness or because they agree, say that no no it&#8217;s more like the act of a company director giving advice on a small financial matter. I&#8217;m sure much of that is that people are in this case certain that Bush and Blair don&#8217;t meet even that lower standard. But there is some interest I think in getting the standard right.</p>

	<p>Of course my rule will mean that some well-intentioned politicians will lose their jobs through no fault of their own. But when we go to war based on false reasons, many soldiers and civilians lose their lives through no fault of their own, so I&#8217;m not going to grieve for the unemployed pollies.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69408</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69408</guid>
		<description>
While most people held a fairly high subjective probability before December 2002 that Saddam had lots of WMDs, for anyone rational that probability declined sharply once he readmitted inspectors, and declined further as the inspectors searched sites nominated by the US and UK as part of the weapons program and found nothing. At the same time, the probability that Bush and Blair were lying rose steadily for anyone who was paying attention.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While most people held a fairly high subjective probability before December 2002 that Saddam had lots of WMDs, for anyone rational that probability declined sharply once he readmitted inspectors, and declined further as the inspectors searched sites nominated by the US and UK as part of the weapons program and found nothing. At the same time, the probability that Bush and Blair were lying rose steadily for anyone who was paying attention.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Donoghue</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69406</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Donoghue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69406</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;David Kay himself said as much after coming up empty in the post-war search for WMDs. “We were all wrong.”&lt;/em&gt;

Kay is fond of saying that sort of thing. He was wrong and wants to believe everyone else was too. But back in October 2002, Putin embarassed Blair by saying &quot;Russia has not in its possession any trustworthy data that could support the existence of nuclear weapons or any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.&quot; Blair replied: &quot;You will have to eat your words.&quot;

Not everyone was wrong. But that is not the important point. In most parliamentary democracies it is a serious matter to mislead the legislature, even if this is done without making statements which can be shown to have been lies. Blair certainly misled the House of Commons about the quality of the evidence.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>David Kay himself said as much after coming up empty in the post-war search for WMDs. &#8220;We were all wrong.&#8221;</em></p>

	<p>Kay is fond of saying that sort of thing. He was wrong and wants to believe everyone else was too. But back in October 2002, Putin embarassed Blair by saying &#8220;Russia has not in its possession any trustworthy data that could support the existence of nuclear weapons or any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.&#8221; Blair replied: &#8220;You will have to eat your words.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Not everyone was wrong. But that is not the important point. In most parliamentary democracies it is a serious matter to mislead the legislature, even if this is done without making statements which can be shown to have been lies. Blair certainly misled the House of Commons about the quality of the evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/comment-page-1/#comment-69403</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/25/two-decisions-not-one/#comment-69403</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;With regard to the first decision [removal of Saddam Hussein], there is a case to be made that it had to be done, and that it had to be done right then.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Err, isn&#039;t war for regime change illegal?

Perhaps the people&#039;s peer Elizabeth Wilmshurst will tells us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;<i>With regard to the first decision [removal of Saddam Hussein], there is a case to be made that it had to be done, and that it had to be done right then.</i>&#8221;</p>

	<p>Err, isn&#8217;t war for regime change illegal?</p>

	<p>Perhaps the people&#8217;s peer Elizabeth Wilmshurst will tells us.</p>
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