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	<title>Comments on: Election Day</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Matt Brubeck</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70877</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Brubeck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 May 2005 16:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70877</guid>
		<description>Alternately, why not make election day a national holiday?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alternately, why not make election day a national holiday?</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70605</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 15:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70605</guid>
		<description>In Maryland, we got off from school on election day.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In Maryland, we got off from school on election day.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70565</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 12:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70565</guid>
		<description>Tom Lynch, JQ: Good points both.
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom Lynch, JQ: Good points both.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Daws</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70557</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Daws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 10:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70557</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I never understand this about voting being so hard.  As Jasper says, polls are open here 7am to 10pm: even with a commute, surely no-one spends *that* long away from home (I have to walk about 30 seconds to get to the polling station this year: it&#039;s always been less than 5 minutes away from my house).  Maybe it&#039;s different if you live in a rural community.  But then you could always get a postal vote.

I do have some sympathy with the view that voting shouldn&#039;t be *that* easy to do: it should be something you&#039;re willing to spend 15 minutes on once every 4 years.  Put that way, it&#039;s not that hard a task (getting a passport probably causes me more pain).  I&#039;d be more in favour of something like P.R. to encourage people out with the argument that their vote will actually count.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, I never understand this about voting being so hard.  As Jasper says, polls are open here 7am to 10pm: even with a commute, surely no-one spends <strong>that</strong> long away from home (I have to walk about 30 seconds to get to the polling station this year: it&#8217;s always been less than 5 minutes away from my house).  Maybe it&#8217;s different if you live in a rural community.  But then you could always get a postal vote.</p>

	<p>I do have some sympathy with the view that voting shouldn&#8217;t be <strong>that</strong> easy to do: it should be something you&#8217;re willing to spend 15 minutes on once every 4 years.  Put that way, it&#8217;s not that hard a task (getting a passport probably causes me more pain).  I&#8217;d be more in favour of something like P.R. to encourage people out with the argument that their vote will actually count.</p>
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		<title>By: Simstim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70555</link>
		<dc:creator>Simstim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 09:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70555</guid>
		<description>RE: &quot;16. Well, civil servants do get the Queen’s birthday off, which is probably reasonable compensation for having to work on polling day.&quot;

So what happens if the Queen&#039;s birthday and polling day coincide?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>RE: &#8220;16. Well, civil servants do get the Queen&#8217;s birthday off, which is probably reasonable compensation for having to work on polling day.&#8221;</p>

	<p>So what happens if the Queen&#8217;s birthday and polling day coincide?</p>
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		<title>By: Jasper Milvain</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70553</link>
		<dc:creator>Jasper Milvain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 08:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70553</guid>
		<description>The polling station here is open from 7am to &lt;strong&gt;10pm&lt;/strong&gt;, which ought to be long enough for most commuters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The polling station here is open from 7am to <strong>10pm</strong>, which ought to be long enough for most commuters.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70547</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 07:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70547</guid>
		<description>John Q: here&#039;s a weblog post from last year&#039;s Australian elections on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2004/weblog/200409/s1209354.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the donkey vote&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Q: here&#8217;s a weblog post from last year&#8217;s Australian elections on <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2004/weblog/200409/s1209354.htm" rel="nofollow">the donkey vote</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Lynch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70543</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 06:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70543</guid>
		<description>Tom T., fair point.

I suppose what I&#039;m trying to get across is that objections raised to compulsory voting that are based on it being a perceived infringement on rights or liberties are not usually accompanied by corresponding objections to, say, enforced shopping hours, or seatbelt-wearing, or car registration, or mandatory education between the ages of six and sixteen ...

There is usually an ulterior motive involving the perceived likelihood damage to a particular political party or cause.  We&#039;re having a similar debate now in Western Australia where the conservatives are opposing the introduction of one-vote-one-value electoral sizes (in W.A., country electorates have as little as a third the population of urban electorates but still have the same parliamentary representation).  Since our conservative parties (the Liberals and Nationals) tend to fare better in rural areas there is an obvious pragmatic motive for this opposition, but it is never voiced (which irritates me greatly).

So yes, generalising about &quot;conservatives&quot; is probably unwarranted.  I&#039;m sure if compulsory voting was likely to damage the left wing of politics they&#039;d campaign against it on equally silly grounds.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom T., fair point.</p>

	<p>I suppose what I&#8217;m trying to get across is that objections raised to compulsory voting that are based on it being a perceived infringement on rights or liberties are not usually accompanied by corresponding objections to, say, enforced shopping hours, or seatbelt-wearing, or car registration, or mandatory education between the ages of six and sixteen &#8230;</p>

	<p>There is usually an ulterior motive involving the perceived likelihood damage to a particular political party or cause.  We&#8217;re having a similar debate now in Western Australia where the conservatives are opposing the introduction of one-vote-one-value electoral sizes (in W.A., country electorates have as little as a third the population of urban electorates but still have the same parliamentary representation).  Since our conservative parties (the Liberals and Nationals) tend to fare better in rural areas there is an obvious pragmatic motive for this opposition, but it is never voiced (which irritates me greatly).</p>

	<p>So yes, generalising about &#8220;conservatives&#8221; is probably unwarranted.  I&#8217;m sure if compulsory voting was likely to damage the left wing of politics they&#8217;d campaign against it on equally silly grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70540</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 05:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70540</guid>
		<description>
&quot;Apathetic voters who would just as soon have stayed away may tend to pull the lever for the name that is most familiar to them.&quot;

Because Australia has a constituency system, like that of the UK, it&#039;s usually a safe bet that apathetic voters (in fact, most voters) won&#039;t recognise the names of any of the candidates. Most people vote for parties rather than individuals.

It used to be said that there was a &quot;donkey vote&quot; in which people numbered the candidates in the order they appeared on the ballot paper, but the advantage was eliminated by various reforms (randomisation and so on) and I haven&#039;t heard this referred to for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Apathetic voters who would just as soon have stayed away may tend to pull the lever for the name that is most familiar to them.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Because Australia has a constituency system, like that of the UK, it&#8217;s usually a safe bet that apathetic voters (in fact, most voters) won&#8217;t recognise the names of any of the candidates. Most people vote for parties rather than individuals.</p>

	<p>It used to be said that there was a &#8220;donkey vote&#8221; in which people numbered the candidates in the order they appeared on the ballot paper, but the advantage was eliminated by various reforms (randomisation and so on) and I haven&#8217;t heard this referred to for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70535</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 03:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70535</guid>
		<description>Mill, in theory compulsory voting could favor the re-election of incumbents.  Apathetic voters who would just as soon have stayed away may tend to pull the lever for the name that is most familiar to them.  I have no personal knowledge as to whether there is any empirical support for this hypothesis in Australian politics.  One &lt;a href=&quot;http://trevorcook.typepad.com/weblog/2004/02/australian_elec.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;commentator&lt;/a&gt; suggests that &quot;There have been 21 Federal elections since Menzies took the Coalition to victory in 1949. The incumbent has won 17 of those elections, 18 if you consider Fraser to be the incumbent in 1975.&quot;  Again, though, I cannot venture to say how reliable that writer may be.  
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mill, in theory compulsory voting could favor the re-election of incumbents.  Apathetic voters who would just as soon have stayed away may tend to pull the lever for the name that is most familiar to them.  I have no personal knowledge as to whether there is any empirical support for this hypothesis in Australian politics.  One <a href="http://trevorcook.typepad.com/weblog/2004/02/australian_elec.html" rel="nofollow">commentator</a> suggests that &#8220;There have been 21 Federal elections since Menzies took the Coalition to victory in 1949. The incumbent has won 17 of those elections, 18 if you consider Fraser to be the incumbent in 1975.&#8221;  Again, though, I cannot venture to say how reliable that writer may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70534</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 03:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70534</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If Australia has the best voting system in the world, why have the Liberals been in power so long?&lt;/i&gt;
It has been that long, even though it seems so. Keating and Hawke were both Labor, and for 13 years that ended in 1996. Anyway my comment was on the voting system, not whom the people vote for. 
I live in Washington, too, Jim. I wish they would have a new election, this time with different candidates. Neither Gregoire nor Rossi really seems competent to run a state with 6.5 million residents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If Australia has the best voting system in the world, why have the Liberals been in power so long?</i><br />
It has been that long, even though it seems so. Keating and Hawke were both Labor, and for 13 years that ended in 1996. Anyway my comment was on the voting system, not whom the people vote for.<br />
I live in Washington, too, Jim. I wish they would have a new election, this time with different candidates. Neither Gregoire nor Rossi really seems competent to run a state with 6.5 million residents.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70533</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 03:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70533</guid>
		<description>Does anywhere in the US that uses schools for polling really close them for this?  I&#039;ve never seen it, despite living in a few different cities that used schools- they just rope off the area used.  Polling stations are not so big- it would seem crazy to close the whole school for that, wouldn&#039;t it?  Especially if not every school was used.  I&#039;d be interested to hear if this actually happens.  (It doesn&#039;t happen in Idaho, or Albany NY, or Philadelphia.)  The best place I&#039;ve had as a polling station was the Pizza place down the street from my first apartment in Philadelphia.  (They didn&#039;t close that, either, making it seem even more dumb to close a whole school)  Free Pizza and sodas avaliable for the poll workers and people going to vote.  I&#039;m sure it helped turn-out, at least in the in the neighborhood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Does anywhere in the US that uses schools for polling really close them for this?  I&#8217;ve never seen it, despite living in a few different cities that used schools- they just rope off the area used.  Polling stations are not so big- it would seem crazy to close the whole school for that, wouldn&#8217;t it?  Especially if not every school was used.  I&#8217;d be interested to hear if this actually happens.  (It doesn&#8217;t happen in Idaho, or Albany NY, or Philadelphia.)  The best place I&#8217;ve had as a polling station was the Pizza place down the street from my first apartment in Philadelphia.  (They didn&#8217;t close that, either, making it seem even more dumb to close a whole school)  Free Pizza and sodas avaliable for the poll workers and people going to vote.  I&#8217;m sure it helped turn-out, at least in the in the neighborhood.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70532</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 03:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70532</guid>
		<description>Tom Lynch, I think it&#039;s a bit of an overgeneralization to associate opposition to compulsory voting with conservatives.  In the US, the topic really has no constitutency at all, left or right; it&#039;s just never been part of our political discourse.  Moreover, to the best of my knowledge, plenty of nations that one might ordinarily think of as liberal, such as Canada or the Scandinavian countries, do not have compulsory voting, whereas Singapore, a nation with a strong illiberal streak, does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom Lynch, I think it&#8217;s a bit of an overgeneralization to associate opposition to compulsory voting with conservatives.  In the US, the topic really has no constitutency at all, left or right; it&#8217;s just never been part of our political discourse.  Moreover, to the best of my knowledge, plenty of nations that one might ordinarily think of as liberal, such as Canada or the Scandinavian countries, do not have compulsory voting, whereas Singapore, a nation with a strong illiberal streak, does.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70530</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 02:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70530</guid>
		<description>Jim, I&#039;ve edited the footnote to reflect the valid point you made. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jim, I&#8217;ve edited the footnote to reflect the valid point you made.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Lynch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-70528</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2005 01:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/04/election-day-2/#comment-70528</guid>
		<description>Voting&#039;s made compulsory in Australia by fining people who are registered to vote but do not go to a polling booth on election day.  The fines are not too large (~$100 I think) and reasonable excuses are accepted.

From anderson:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;And do we really want people with no clue what’s going on to pick candidates at random, or on the basis of which name is funnier?&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If the working classes and the education-poor tend to be misinformed, is that problem really best solved by maintaining disincentives for them to vote?  Of course not.

Compulsory voting doesn&#039;t infringe on people&#039;s rights or liberties in any meaningful way.  There&#039;s just an expectation that they will spend half an hour voting once every 3-4 years.  This is an explicit conferral of rights in another sense, I think.

Remember that everyone is still free to make invalid or informal votes.  No one is forced to choose between alternatives all of which are unacceptable to them.

I find it humourous that conservatives make so many aspects of life intrinsically mandatory (being &quot;productive&quot; is the most onerous) but immediately balk at compulsory voting and compulsory unionism.  We wouldn&#039;t want all those poor people getting enfranchised now, would we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Voting&#8217;s made compulsory in Australia by fining people who are registered to vote but do not go to a polling booth on election day.  The fines are not too large (~$100 I think) and reasonable excuses are accepted.</p>

	<p>From anderson:<br />
<blockquote>&#8220;And do we really want people with no clue what&#8217;s going on to pick candidates at random, or on the basis of which name is funnier?&#8221;</blockquote></p>

	<p>If the working classes and the education-poor tend to be misinformed, is that problem really best solved by maintaining disincentives for them to vote?  Of course not.</p>

	<p>Compulsory voting doesn&#8217;t infringe on people&#8217;s rights or liberties in any meaningful way.  There&#8217;s just an expectation that they will spend half an hour voting once every 3-4 years.  This is an explicit conferral of rights in another sense, I think.</p>

	<p>Remember that everyone is still free to make invalid or informal votes.  No one is forced to choose between alternatives all of which are unacceptable to them.</p>

	<p>I find it humourous that conservatives make so many aspects of life intrinsically mandatory (being &#8220;productive&#8221; is the most onerous) but immediately balk at compulsory voting and compulsory unionism.  We wouldn&#8217;t want all those poor people getting enfranchised now, would we?</p>
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