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	<title>Comments on: Rum, Sodomy and the Nash</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Bernard Guerrero</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71658</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Guerrero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 May 2005 13:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71658</guid>
		<description>David, that&#039;s rather vague.  You&#039;re correct as to a _specific_ technology (e.g. the gin) encouraging slavery.  But the mechanism is key.  Both cotton picking and processing were massively labor intensive.  The gin made the processing a great deal cheaper/more productive while doing nothing to make the actual growing/picking process less labor intensive, which resulted in a rapidly growing demand for field labor.  To make the claim you are making, I think you&#039;d need to show a similar perverse mechanism.  I don&#039;t see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>David, that&#8217;s rather vague.  You&#8217;re correct as to a <em>specific</em> technology (e.g. the gin) encouraging slavery.  But the mechanism is key.  Both cotton picking and processing were massively labor intensive.  The gin made the processing a great deal cheaper/more productive while doing nothing to make the actual growing/picking process less labor intensive, which resulted in a rapidly growing demand for field labor.  To make the claim you are making, I think you&#8217;d need to show a similar perverse mechanism.  I don&#8217;t see it.</p>
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		<title>By: David Salmanson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71613</link>
		<dc:creator>David Salmanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2005 19:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71613</guid>
		<description>Darren,
This was thought to be true in the US case but several books on industrialization in the South showed that technological improvement and slavery were compatible.  One need only think of how the technological improvement of the cotton gin spurred rather than lessened slavery&#039;s growth.  The recent upsurge in forced labor around the world is surely as much a function of technology as it is despite technology.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Darren,<br />
This was thought to be true in the US case but several books on industrialization in the South showed that technological improvement and slavery were compatible.  One need only think of how the technological improvement of the cotton gin spurred rather than lessened slavery&#8217;s growth.  The recent upsurge in forced labor around the world is surely as much a function of technology as it is despite technology.</p>

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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71568</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2005 10:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71568</guid>
		<description>Is anyone doing any work on correlating technology (or the lack of it) to the existence or prevalence of the institution of slavery?

Isn&#039;t a big reason for the demise of slavery the increase of technology which is illustrated in the technology of transport on the high seas?  That is, galley slaves were economically viable before sail technology improved such that it wasn&#039;t possible to sail a ship by nailing/tying someone to a sheet, stay or painter?  As soon as it became cheaper to sail rather than to row and since the mobility of sail operators (sailors) was necessary to sail; slavery - in the form of galley slaves - disappeared.

I&#039;d be interested to read if anyone (preferrably an economic historian) has done any work in this area or similar - such as the change from an agricultural economy to an industrial economy.  Or perhaps the increase of agricultural yields with the use of fertilisers (guano rather than ammonium nitrate).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is anyone doing any work on correlating technology (or the lack of it) to the existence or prevalence of the institution of slavery?</p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t a big reason for the demise of slavery the increase of technology which is illustrated in the technology of transport on the high seas?  That is, galley slaves were economically viable before sail technology improved such that it wasn&#8217;t possible to sail a ship by nailing/tying someone to a sheet, stay or painter?  As soon as it became cheaper to sail rather than to row and since the mobility of sail operators (sailors) was necessary to sail; slavery &#8211; in the form of galley slaves &#8211; disappeared.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d be interested to read if anyone (preferrably an economic historian) has done any work in this area or similar &#8211; such as the change from an agricultural economy to an industrial economy.  Or perhaps the increase of agricultural yields with the use of fertilisers (guano rather than ammonium nitrate).</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71402</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 22:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71402</guid>
		<description>_ toughs who financed their own ships and voyages to go out and savage the Spanish main and sometimes do a little slave trading. This also kept the Crown’s expenses down, which was very important since the English monarch was relatively poor vis a vis other monarchs when the RN was getting started._

Er, yes.  I sort of mentioned that in note 2, above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em> toughs who financed their own ships and voyages to go out and savage the Spanish main and sometimes do a little slave trading. This also kept the Crown&#8217;s expenses down, which was very important since the English monarch was relatively poor vis a vis other monarchs when the RN was getting started.</em></p>

	<p>Er, yes.  I sort of mentioned that in note 2, above.</p>
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		<title>By: j mct</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71357</link>
		<dc:creator>j mct</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 14:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71357</guid>
		<description>One must also remember that the Royal Navy was originally staffed by pirates, errr, privateers. The old &#039;customs&#039; were the old customs because Drake, Hawkins, Raleigh and the rest were not cultured courtiers or technocrats but mostly West Country (Devonshire and Cornwall) toughs who financed their own ships and voyages to go out and savage the Spanish main and sometimes do a little slave trading. This also kept the Crown&#039;s expenses down, which was very important since the English monarch was relatively poor vis a vis other monarchs when the RN was getting started. That a large part of the allure of being a sea captain was plunder, err, prize money, was traditional and as the institution changed it didn&#039;t change all at once, like all institutions it only changed as much as it absolutely had to, hence the old vestiges of the earlier freebooters that made up the RN.

The RN was very meritocratic for its day, it was one of the places in British society a relatively lower class sort could do well, even if he had a disadvantage. The two European military institutions generally lauded for their administrative excellence are the Prussian/German General staff and the British Admiralty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One must also remember that the Royal Navy was originally staffed by pirates, errr, privateers. The old &#8216;customs&#8217; were the old customs because Drake, Hawkins, Raleigh and the rest were not cultured courtiers or technocrats but mostly West Country (Devonshire and Cornwall) toughs who financed their own ships and voyages to go out and savage the Spanish main and sometimes do a little slave trading. This also kept the Crown&#8217;s expenses down, which was very important since the English monarch was relatively poor vis a vis other monarchs when the RN was getting started. That a large part of the allure of being a sea captain was plunder, err, prize money, was traditional and as the institution changed it didn&#8217;t change all at once, like all institutions it only changed as much as it absolutely had to, hence the old vestiges of the earlier freebooters that made up the RN.</p>

	<p>The RN was very meritocratic for its day, it was one of the places in British society a relatively lower class sort could do well, even if he had a disadvantage. The two European military institutions generally lauded for their administrative excellence are the Prussian/German General staff and the British Admiralty.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71352</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 14:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71352</guid>
		<description>And not even that - it merely had to defeat the French Navy to the extent required, at a cost bearable to the people making and enforcing the decisions.  For example, impressment of sailors was a severe cost to the impressee&#039;s, but tolerable to those ordering it and carrying it out.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And not even that &#8211; it merely had to defeat the French Navy to the extent required, at a cost bearable to the people making and enforcing the decisions.  For example, impressment of sailors was a severe cost to the impressee&#8217;s, but tolerable to those ordering it and carrying it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Guerrero</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71343</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Guerrero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 11:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71343</guid>
		<description>Gentlemen, ladies, why force this into an either/or situation?  While the British Navy and its internal institutions may have been a &quot;second best&quot; solution (or worse), balancing a number of private interests rather than aiming at a perfect fighting institution, this is all besides the point.

As the old joke goes, &quot;I don&#039;t have to outrun the _bear_.&quot;  Neither did the British Navy have to operate optimally.  It simply needed to be incentivized in such a way as to operate more efficiently than the French Navy when they clashed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Gentlemen, ladies, why force this into an either/or situation?  While the British Navy and its internal institutions may have been a &#8220;second best&#8221; solution (or worse), balancing a number of private interests rather than aiming at a perfect fighting institution, this is all besides the point.</p>

	<p>As the old joke goes, &#8220;I don&#8217;t have to outrun the <em>bear</em>.&#8221;  Neither did the British Navy have to operate optimally.  It simply needed to be incentivized in such a way as to operate more efficiently than the French Navy when they clashed.</p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71335</link>
		<dc:creator>adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 08:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71335</guid>
		<description>comment 12 yabonn

&quot;Annie Hall&quot;: Marshall MacLuhan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>comment 12 yabonn</p>

	<p>&#8220;Annie Hall&#8221;: Marshall MacLuhan</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71312</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 00:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71312</guid>
		<description>_I agree that fear of the Executive was certainly a serious motive for maintaining Parilamentary controls on the army, it is just that I am not sure that purchase does this too plausibly._

Sure.  I suspect that purchase was a blunt instrument, but purchase and patronage combined strikes me as a pretty solid way of keeping things in the hands of acceptable folks.

(Of course, that ignores the lessons of the 14th and 15th centuries, which is that &quot;acceptable&quot; people tend to be the ones to put the knife in.  cf. War of the Roses, and so on).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>I agree that fear of the Executive was certainly a serious motive for maintaining Parilamentary controls on the army, it is just that I am not sure that purchase does this too plausibly.</em></p>

	<p>Sure.  I suspect that purchase was a blunt instrument, but purchase and patronage combined strikes me as a pretty solid way of keeping things in the hands of acceptable folks.</p>

	<p>(Of course, that ignores the lessons of the 14th and 15th centuries, which is that &#8220;acceptable&#8221; people tend to be the ones to put the knife in.  cf. War of the Roses, and so on).</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Sundseth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71310</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Sundseth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 00:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71310</guid>
		<description>Sorry, an asterisked note turned into a bulleted paragraph upon posting.  Please take that into account in my immediately preceding message.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, an asterisked note turned into a bulleted paragraph upon posting.  Please take that into account in my immediately preceding message.</p>

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		<title>By: Doug Sundseth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71309</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Sundseth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2005 00:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71309</guid>
		<description>&quot;Seriously, so Napoleonic era armies were composed of and/or augmented by mercenary units raised by the nobility? You learn something new every day.&quot;

I&#039;d say rather that the units of the Napoleonic era* arose from earlier units that had elements of both the mercenary and the feudal.  The practice of purchasing promotions arose during that earlier period and continued for a variety of reasons during the Napoleonic Wars.

* This is more true in some armies than others.  The explicitly anti-aristocratic French army of the Republican period broke many of the links between the earlier and later practices in a way that the Austrian, Russian, and British armies, in particular did not.  The Prussian army was a bit of an outlier, in that it was more directly supported and controlled by the Prussian government than were the others mentioned.  The Prussian army was also created out of whole cloth in a way very different from the more organic way that the other major European armies arose.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Seriously, so Napoleonic era armies were composed of and/or augmented by mercenary units raised by the nobility? You learn something new every day.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d say rather that the units of the Napoleonic era* arose from earlier units that had elements of both the mercenary and the feudal.  The practice of purchasing promotions arose during that earlier period and continued for a variety of reasons during the Napoleonic Wars.</p>

	<ul>
		<li>This is more true in some armies than others.  The explicitly anti-aristocratic French army of the Republican period broke many of the links between the earlier and later practices in a way that the Austrian, Russian, and British armies, in particular did not.  The Prussian army was a bit of an outlier, in that it was more directly supported and controlled by the Prussian government than were the others mentioned.  The Prussian army was also created out of whole cloth in a way very different from the more organic way that the other major European armies arose.</li>
	</ul>

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		<title>By: agm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71307</link>
		<dc:creator>agm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2005 23:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71307</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The arbitrary system of promotion, which depended at least as much (and probably rather more) on patronage and political connections as on merit.&lt;/i&gt;
And where might academics have first hand experience in how such a system works? =)

Seriously, so Napoleonic era armies were composed of and/or augmented by mercenary units raised by the nobility? You learn something new every day...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The arbitrary system of promotion, which depended at least as much (and probably rather more) on patronage and political connections as on merit.</i><br />
And where might academics have first hand experience in how such a system works? =)</p>

	<p>Seriously, so Napoleonic era armies were composed of and/or augmented by mercenary units raised by the nobility? You learn something new every day&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Smoler</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71303</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Smoler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2005 22:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71303</guid>
		<description>In re post-1815 increases in the value of aristocratic connections for securing a command, my strong sense is that they mattered more because there were so few commands to be had.  The Navy shrank from almost 120,000 in 1813 to something under 20,000 in 1817 or thereabouts, while the number of Post Captains did not shrink at all, other than through natural mortality.  I do not think they ceased to fear France (or Russia):  there were repeated naval scares.  

In re irrationality and incompetence, they admittedly have defects as explanatory devices, not least because incompetence is not always clear, and I regret having deployed them so carelessly.  For one thing, I am not sure that 18th Brit Army officers were incompetent at war-fighting, and there is obvious evidence that they were as good as or better than the competition (Britain lost relatively few land battles in the 18th C.)  Stable, property-owning gents made pretty good field officers in many pre-Napoleonic 18th C. armies; it was industrial war and, above all, maneuver warfare and combined arms operations, which made the Brit gentleman officer look somewhat inept--and even them, very ept indeed at securing unit cohesion, morale, discipline, etc.  If memories of the 17th C. remain disturbing, you do not necessarily need to secure aristocratic control, since the perceived threat is neither Jacobin nor Bolshevik, it is at least as likely Catholic or Dissenting or Jacobite:  you may simply want Whiggish Anglicans, it depends on how the people who allowed purchase interpreted the New Model Army and the Civil War. There were religious qualifications, and permissable exceptions, I do not remember quite how they worked.  But does purchase necessarily let you keep out Jacobites?  I agree that fear of the Executive was certainly a serious motive for maintaining Parilamentary controls on the army, it is just that I am not sure that purchase does this too plausibly.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In re post-1815 increases in the value of aristocratic connections for securing a command, my strong sense is that they mattered more because there were so few commands to be had.  The Navy shrank from almost 120,000 in 1813 to something under 20,000 in 1817 or thereabouts, while the number of Post Captains did not shrink at all, other than through natural mortality.  I do not think they ceased to fear France (or Russia):  there were repeated naval scares.</p>

	<p>In re irrationality and incompetence, they admittedly have defects as explanatory devices, not least because incompetence is not always clear, and I regret having deployed them so carelessly.  For one thing, I am not sure that 18th Brit Army officers were incompetent at war-fighting, and there is obvious evidence that they were as good as or better than the competition (Britain lost relatively few land battles in the 18th C.)  Stable, property-owning gents made pretty good field officers in many pre-Napoleonic 18th C. armies; it was industrial war and, above all, maneuver warfare and combined arms operations, which made the Brit gentleman officer look somewhat inept&#8212;and even them, very ept indeed at securing unit cohesion, morale, discipline, etc.  If memories of the 17th C. remain disturbing, you do not necessarily need to secure aristocratic control, since the perceived threat is neither Jacobin nor Bolshevik, it is at least as likely Catholic or Dissenting or Jacobite:  you may simply want Whiggish Anglicans, it depends on how the people who allowed purchase interpreted the New Model Army and the Civil War. There were religious qualifications, and permissable exceptions, I do not remember quite how they worked.  But does purchase necessarily let you keep out Jacobites?  I agree that fear of the Executive was certainly a serious motive for maintaining Parilamentary controls on the army, it is just that I am not sure that purchase does this too plausibly.</p>


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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71300</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2005 22:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71300</guid>
		<description>It would be a mistake to assume that the Britsh navy of that period was the product of intelligent design--it evolved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It would be a mistake to assume that the Britsh navy of that period was the product of intelligent design&#8212;it evolved.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/comment-page-1/#comment-71287</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2005 21:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/10/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash/#comment-71287</guid>
		<description>_ In re the sale of Army but not Naval commissions: while it is true that the Army could in theory overthrow the regime, the Navy could (through incompetence) expose the Kingdom to foreign conquest. If we are speculating in the absence of good evidence, why not assume that the Navy foreswore an irrational system because the stakes were so high? As for allowing aristocratic connections to secure commands, the RN seems to have done more of this after 1815 than before_

I&#039;m not sure labelling things as &#039;irrational&#039; or &#039;incompetent&#039; is the best way to analyze them.  There&#039;s an assumption in that that the primary goal for a military service should be excellence in fighting.  But if the British were more concerned with the possibility of an Army coup (which they might well be, given the 17th century), then fighting effectiveness could come second to ensuring control of the Army by giving it an aristocratic officer corps.  

Conversely, with the Navy, if the main threat is that of foreign invasion, then fighting effectiveness _would_ become the primary goal, and an exclusionary officer corps not useful.  The point about the RN doing it more after 1815 rather than before simply echoes that.  Without the mortal threat that was Bonaparte, the British could afford to reduce the effectiveness of the Navy in service of elite domination of the officer corps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em> In re the sale of Army but not Naval commissions: while it is true that the Army could in theory overthrow the regime, the Navy could (through incompetence) expose the Kingdom to foreign conquest. If we are speculating in the absence of good evidence, why not assume that the Navy foreswore an irrational system because the stakes were so high? As for allowing aristocratic connections to secure commands, the RN seems to have done more of this after 1815 than before</em></p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure labelling things as &#8216;irrational&#8217; or &#8216;incompetent&#8217; is the best way to analyze them.  There&#8217;s an assumption in that that the primary goal for a military service should be excellence in fighting.  But if the British were more concerned with the possibility of an Army coup (which they might well be, given the 17th century), then fighting effectiveness could come second to ensuring control of the Army by giving it an aristocratic officer corps.</p>

	<p>Conversely, with the Navy, if the main threat is that of foreign invasion, then fighting effectiveness <em>would</em> become the primary goal, and an exclusionary officer corps not useful.  The point about the RN doing it more after 1815 rather than before simply echoes that.  Without the mortal threat that was Bonaparte, the British could afford to reduce the effectiveness of the Navy in service of elite domination of the officer corps.</p>
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