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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Gandhi and his rabble&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Oskar Shapley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71797</link>
		<dc:creator>Oskar Shapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2005 17:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71797</guid>
		<description>Ghandi once said:

&quot;The ten most terrifying words in the Indian language are: &#039;I&#039;m from the
British Empire and I&#039;m here to help.&#039;&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ghandi once said:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The ten most terrifying words in the Indian language are: &#8216;I&#8217;m from the<br />
British Empire and I&#8217;m here to help.&#8217;&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71497</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 19:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71497</guid>
		<description>Mr. Johnson, excellent point. Actually, in many of the post-colonial states, the worst rulers -- such as Idi Amin -- got started in British colonial organizations -- the army in Amin&#039;s case -- and were cultivated in the post-colonial world by their former masters. There&#039;s a nice bio of Amin here: http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.htm. It tracks the typical subaltern personality, employed by the Brits against the Mau Mau in Kenya, early problem with torturing prisoners covered up, then, with Uganda set up as an independent state, sent to Israel for military training. With the details a little different, this could be the bio of a dozen post-colonial despots.  The colonial system depended on a class of overseers, and that class was as much a legacy to the post-colonial states as the railroads. It was a very poisonous legacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mr. Johnson, excellent point. Actually, in many of the post-colonial states, the worst rulers&#8212;such as Idi Amin&#8212;got started in British colonial organizations&#8212;the army in Amin&#8217;s case&#8212;and were cultivated in the post-colonial world by their former masters. There&#8217;s a nice bio of Amin here: <a href="http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.htm</a>. It tracks the typical subaltern personality, employed by the Brits against the Mau Mau in Kenya, early problem with torturing prisoners covered up, then, with Uganda set up as an independent state, sent to Israel for military training. With the details a little different, this could be the bio of a dozen post-colonial despots.  The colonial system depended on a class of overseers, and that class was as much a legacy to the post-colonial states as the railroads. It was a very poisonous legacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71495</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 19:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71495</guid>
		<description>&quot;So you’re saying that the neocons want the world broken up into a bunch of small corporations that each hold absolute power over their employees/customers?&quot;

I think he meant &quot;large corporations&quot;.

And I was just about to mention Leo Congo Rex m&#039;self. One of most squalid and nasty episodes in modern history. But to be fair, you couldn&#039;t really call it colonialism - Leo personally owned the plantation and ran it along antebellum lines but without that Southern TLC.

Anyway, tacking back to topic, the best thing you can say about the British Empire is that any other geopolitical player around would then have fucked it up even worse. Counterfactuals are usually pointless, occassionally instructive and always fun. So imagine the subcontinent held uneasily by the Romanov Bear or the Hohnenzollern Eagle during the age of Imperial expansion. I reckon that&#039;d screw India up even worse than the Moghuls or the Brits ever did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;So you&#8217;re saying that the neocons want the world broken up into a bunch of small corporations that each hold absolute power over their employees/customers?&#8221;</p>

	<p>I think he meant &#8220;large corporations&#8221;.</p>

	<p>And I was just about to mention Leo Congo Rex m&#8217;self. One of most squalid and nasty episodes in modern history. But to be fair, you couldn&#8217;t really call it colonialism &#8211; Leo personally owned the plantation and ran it along antebellum lines but without that Southern <span class="caps">TLC</span>.</p>

	<p>Anyway, tacking back to topic, the best thing you can say about the British Empire is that any other geopolitical player around would then have fucked it up even worse. Counterfactuals are usually pointless, occassionally instructive and always fun. So imagine the subcontinent held uneasily by the Romanov Bear or the Hohnenzollern Eagle during the age of Imperial expansion. I reckon that&#8217;d screw India up even worse than the Moghuls or the Brits ever did.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71491</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 18:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71491</guid>
		<description>Writers for COMMENTARY were romanticizing British imperialism decades ago.  I remember their review of the movie Gandhi when it came out--it was essentially a defense of the British.  I don&#039;t think it made any mention of famines under British rule.  Try to imagine a summary of Stalin&#039;s rule that didn&#039;t mention famine.

And it&#039;s almost a cliche even in supposedly liberal American newspaters like the NYT to claim that conditions in postcolonial societies are much worse than they were under colonialism.  In some cases that&#039;s probably true--I suspect, for instance, that Idi Amin was not an improvement over British rule in Uganda.  But the claim is made so often I think people forget or never learn about the atrocities committed by the British and others during their reign.  (There are a couple of recent books out about the British atrocities in Kenya during the 50&#039;s, something I&#039;d never heard of before.)  So you often see Hitler, Stalin, and Mao listed as the great mass murderers of the 20th century, with Leopold II conspicuous by his absence.   You see, only the totalitarian ideologies of communism and fascism ever lead to millions of deaths.  Colonialism was only about profit, and gee, no one ever kills people just for money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Writers for <span class="caps">COMMENTARY</span> were romanticizing British imperialism decades ago.  I remember their review of the movie Gandhi when it came out&#8212;it was essentially a defense of the British.  I don&#8217;t think it made any mention of famines under British rule.  Try to imagine a summary of Stalin&#8217;s rule that didn&#8217;t mention famine.</p>

	<p>And it&#8217;s almost a cliche even in supposedly liberal American newspaters like the <span class="caps">NYT</span> to claim that conditions in postcolonial societies are much worse than they were under colonialism.  In some cases that&#8217;s probably true&#8212;I suspect, for instance, that Idi Amin was not an improvement over British rule in Uganda.  But the claim is made so often I think people forget or never learn about the atrocities committed by the British and others during their reign.  (There are a couple of recent books out about the British atrocities in Kenya during the 50&#8217;s, something I&#8217;d never heard of before.)  So you often see Hitler, Stalin, and Mao listed as the great mass murderers of the 20th century, with Leopold II conspicuous by his absence.   You see, only the totalitarian ideologies of communism and fascism ever lead to millions of deaths.  Colonialism was only about profit, and gee, no one ever kills people just for money.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71490</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 18:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71490</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...Stalin was the one who walked away smiling with all the poker chips...&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, from what I&#039;ve read, Stalin was extremely upset. Just like the Bushies today he was planning to rule the world and meager post-WWII expansion was a huge disappointment. He hardly ever was seen smiling again, his heart was broken. Roosevelt and Churchill were smiling. Especially Roosevelt - he was getting ready to meet his maker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;Stalin was the one who walked away smiling with all the poker chips&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Actually, from what I&#8217;ve read, Stalin was extremely upset. Just like the Bushies today he was planning to rule the world and meager post-WWII expansion was a huge disappointment. He hardly ever was seen smiling again, his heart was broken. Roosevelt and Churchill were smiling. Especially Roosevelt &#8211; he was getting ready to meet his maker.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71489</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 18:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71489</guid>
		<description>nofundy,
So you&#039;re saying that the neocons want the world broken up into a bunch of small corporations that each hold absolute power over their employees/customers?  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>nofundy,<br />
So you&#8217;re saying that the neocons want the world broken up into a bunch of small corporations that each hold absolute power over their employees/customers?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: nofundy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71485</link>
		<dc:creator>nofundy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 18:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71485</guid>
		<description>Where Assrocket misses the boat entirely (and in fairness, so do many others)is that the neocon&#039;s wet dream isn&#039;t a return to colonialism at all but a new feudalism, under the auspices of corporate fascism. The great benevolent Lordship will rule us all under the divine guidance of the Great Invisible Hand. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Where Assrocket misses the boat entirely (and in fairness, so do many others)is that the neocon&#8217;s wet dream isn&#8217;t a return to colonialism at all but a new feudalism, under the auspices of corporate fascism. The great benevolent Lordship will rule us all under the divine guidance of the Great Invisible Hand.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71484</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 18:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71484</guid>
		<description>Mr. Bill,
You can argue that FDR had no choice at yalta concering Eastern Europe.  But in classic FDR style, he sold 10&#039;s of thousands of political refugees and prisoners (using tear gas, beatings, and narcotics to get Russian POW&#039;s held in the US) back to Stalin, knowing their fate, just to get Stalin more agreeable to the UN.  FDR certainly didn&#039;t handle the situation expertly, and should have handled it much better.  Out of the three brokers at Yalta, Stalin was the one who walked away smiling with all the poker chips.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mr. Bill,<br />
You can argue that <span class="caps">FDR</span> had no choice at yalta concering Eastern Europe.  But in classic <span class="caps">FDR</span> style, he sold 10&#8217;s of thousands of political refugees and prisoners (using tear gas, beatings, and narcotics to get Russian <span class="caps">POW</span>&#8217;s held in the US) back to Stalin, knowing their fate, just to get Stalin more agreeable to the UN.  <span class="caps">FDR</span> certainly didn&#8217;t handle the situation expertly, and should have handled it much better.  Out of the three brokers at Yalta, Stalin was the one who walked away smiling with all the poker chips.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71474</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 17:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71474</guid>
		<description>taj, that first link is quite telling.  The complaint doesn&#039;t seem to be that the school curriculum is whitewashing British colonial history, but rather that it isn&#039;t emphasising the crimes of British colonial history over other aspects of history.

People are always squabbling over what gets taught in school history, and particularly GCSE and A Level history.

For instance, I did GCSE British social history (1699-1948 or something similar, mostly about the industrial revolution as I recall), other people do an odd hybrid paper about the Tudors + the Second World War.  These objections seem to be perennial, everyone wants their favourite bit of history studied, on the right it is the exploits and achievements of the Empire, the Kings and Queens, dates etc., on the left it is the problems of slavery, Ireland, colonialism, the lives of women and ordinary people, sources, world history etc.

&quot;The Curriculum Online website is funded by the Department for Education and Skills and recommends teaching resources for all subjects taught at schools. But only one source in the module &quot;world study after 1900&quot; for 11- to 14-year-olds is suggested for the study of the partition of Ireland. This compares to 26 for Adolf Hitler and 17 for the Western Front. Similarly in the &quot;Britain 1750-1900&quot; module, 16 sources are suggested for the extension of the franchise in Britain, with only one for the Opium War against China.&quot;

&quot;Mr Lang believes there is no deliberate bias against teaching the ugly past of the British Empire. Unlike many other European countries, the Government does not have control over the content of school lessons.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>taj, that first link is quite telling.  The complaint doesn&#8217;t seem to be that the school curriculum is whitewashing British colonial history, but rather that it isn&#8217;t emphasising the crimes of British colonial history over other aspects of history.</p>

	<p>People are always squabbling over what gets taught in school history, and particularly <span class="caps">GCSE</span> and A Level history.</p>

	<p>For instance, I did <span class="caps">GCSE </span>British social history (1699-1948 or something similar, mostly about the industrial revolution as I recall), other people do an odd hybrid paper about the Tudors + the Second World War.  These objections seem to be perennial, everyone wants their favourite bit of history studied, on the right it is the exploits and achievements of the Empire, the Kings and Queens, dates etc., on the left it is the problems of slavery, Ireland, colonialism, the lives of women and ordinary people, sources, world history etc.</p>

	<p>&#8220;The Curriculum Online website is funded by the Department for Education and Skills and recommends teaching resources for all subjects taught at schools. But only one source in the module &#8220;world study after 1900&#8221; for 11- to 14-year-olds is suggested for the study of the partition of Ireland. This compares to 26 for Adolf Hitler and 17 for the Western Front. Similarly in the &#8220;Britain 1750-1900&#8221; module, 16 sources are suggested for the extension of the franchise in Britain, with only one for the Opium War against China.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;Mr Lang believes there is no deliberate bias against teaching the ugly past of the British Empire. Unlike many other European countries, the Government does not have control over the content of school lessons.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Bridgman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71473</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Bridgman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 16:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71473</guid>
		<description>re: The &quot;colonialism is good&quot; meme, I think two seperate things are being conflated.  The first is the idea that colonialism, while reprehensible, was on the whole advantagous to the colonialized.  This isn&#039;t a moral judgement, but rather a socioeconomic one.  The other thing involved here is this &quot;White Man&#039;s Burden&quot;, &quot;Colonialism is good&quot;, &quot;The bad stuff was exaggerated&quot; revisionism.  The former is a tenable position; the latter is pure schlock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>re: The &#8220;colonialism is good&#8221; meme, I think two seperate things are being conflated.  The first is the idea that colonialism, while reprehensible, was on the whole advantagous to the colonialized.  This isn&#8217;t a moral judgement, but rather a socioeconomic one.  The other thing involved here is this &#8220;White Man&#8217;s Burden&#8221;, &#8220;Colonialism is good&#8221;, &#8220;The bad stuff was exaggerated&#8221; revisionism.  The former is a tenable position; the latter is pure schlock.</p>
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		<title>By: taj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71465</link>
		<dc:creator>taj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 14:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71465</guid>
		<description>rs:

I admit my details about the state and evolution of history schoolteaching in the UK is effectively non-existent and based around what I saw on the BBC. The most relevant thing I could find on Google was this recent article:

http://education.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=632239&amp;host=16&amp;dir=365

and this one from The Age (Australia), about a museum:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/22/1056220466935.html

My gut feel is that what young teachers think is largely irrelevant to what ends up in the curriculum. Certainly here in India, textbooks seem to change in parallel with parties coming and going out of political power. Just as an example, all imperial references to the events of 1857 call it the Sepoy Mutiny, but in our textbooks it&#039;s referred to as the first Freedom Revolt. The truth is somewhere in between, but each side has its own axe to grind (I went to school while the Congress was in power in the 80s).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>rs:</p>

	<p>I admit my details about the state and evolution of history schoolteaching in the UK is effectively non-existent and based around what I saw on the <span class="caps">BBC</span>. The most relevant thing I could find on Google was this recent article:</p>

	<p><a href="http://education.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=632239&#038;host=16&#038;dir=365" rel="nofollow">http://education.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=632239&#038;host=16&#038;dir=365</a></p>

	<p>and this one from The Age (Australia), about a museum:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/22/1056220466935.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/22/1056220466935.html</a></p>

	<p>My gut feel is that what young teachers think is largely irrelevant to what ends up in the curriculum. Certainly here in India, textbooks seem to change in parallel with parties coming and going out of political power. Just as an example, all imperial references to the events of 1857 call it the Sepoy Mutiny, but in our textbooks it&#8217;s referred to as the first Freedom Revolt. The truth is somewhere in between, but each side has its own axe to grind (I went to school while the Congress was in power in the 80s).</p>
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		<title>By: Steady Eddie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71461</link>
		<dc:creator>Steady Eddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 13:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71461</guid>
		<description>Getting back to the point of the original discussion about British colonialism in India, which was the wingnuts&#039; claim that the British could have prevented partition had they stayed a little longer: the core reality is that, far from the British being capable of avoiding partition, the seeds of partition had been sown by the &quot;divide and rule&quot; policies that the British had followed to secure their power in India since the 18th century.

Few people in the US -- and certainly not the wingnuts who purport to opine with any &quot;knowledge&quot; about the &quot;virtues&quot; of British colonialism -- are aware that Muslim rulers governed most of the subcontinent encompassed by colonial India as the Mogul Empire for most of the period between the 12th and 18th centuries, that there were (in the context of the times) reasonably amiable relations between Hindus and Muslims under most Mogul rulers, that a few (such as Shah Jahan, builder of the Taj Mahal) even sought to develop a fusion between the two religions, and that Mogul leaders who resisted British domination -- such as Tipu Sultan in Mysore -- are seen as heroes today in many overwhelmingly Hindu parts of India.

The British were nothing if not shrewd manipulators, and knew that they could never unify their empire, much less hold it, if the regions of India united against them. That&#039;s why they heightened divisions of religion, region, and even caste, to ensure that Indians would have more to fight about amongst themselves than against their British exploiters. They succeeded so well that ironically, even today English is the lingua franca among the roughly 20 major languages in India, and the Civil Service they built to rule above the squabbling nawabs at least gives India a greater potential for governance than most other developing nations, though it remains rife with the self-serving corruption it was designed to respond to under the British.

British rule in India was certainly less bad and much more mixed in its legacy than, say, the fairly genocidal rule of the Dutch in Indonesia or (via the Boers) South Africa, or the virtual slavery, destruction of education, and substance addiction of the French in Indochina or (to a lesser extent) the British and (somewhat) the US in parts of China.

But it was still, beyond dispute, the source of divisions that led ineluctably to the partition of India.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Getting back to the point of the original discussion about British colonialism in India, which was the wingnuts&#8217; claim that the British could have prevented partition had they stayed a little longer: the core reality is that, far from the British being capable of avoiding partition, the seeds of partition had been sown by the &#8220;divide and rule&#8221; policies that the British had followed to secure their power in India since the 18th century.</p>

	<p>Few people in the <span class="caps">US </span>&#8212;and certainly not the wingnuts who purport to opine with any &#8220;knowledge&#8221; about the &#8220;virtues&#8221; of British colonialism&#8212;are aware that Muslim rulers governed most of the subcontinent encompassed by colonial India as the Mogul Empire for most of the period between the 12th and 18th centuries, that there were (in the context of the times) reasonably amiable relations between Hindus and Muslims under most Mogul rulers, that a few (such as Shah Jahan, builder of the Taj Mahal) even sought to develop a fusion between the two religions, and that Mogul leaders who resisted British domination&#8212;such as Tipu Sultan in Mysore&#8212;are seen as heroes today in many overwhelmingly Hindu parts of India.</p>

	<p>The British were nothing if not shrewd manipulators, and knew that they could never unify their empire, much less hold it, if the regions of India united against them. That&#8217;s why they heightened divisions of religion, region, and even caste, to ensure that Indians would have more to fight about amongst themselves than against their British exploiters. They succeeded so well that ironically, even today English is the lingua franca among the roughly 20 major languages in India, and the Civil Service they built to rule above the squabbling nawabs at least gives India a greater potential for governance than most other developing nations, though it remains rife with the self-serving corruption it was designed to respond to under the British.</p>

	<p>British rule in India was certainly less bad and much more mixed in its legacy than, say, the fairly genocidal rule of the Dutch in Indonesia or (via the Boers) South Africa, or the virtual slavery, destruction of education, and substance addiction of the French in Indochina or (to a lesser extent) the British and (somewhat) the US in parts of China.</p>

	<p>But it was still, beyond dispute, the source of divisions that led ineluctably to the partition of India.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71460</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 13:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71460</guid>
		<description>&quot;The same BBC World ran a few programs recently about how this whitewashing is going on in British schools, which concentrate on the positive aspects of colonial history while leaving out the bits where they happened to kill millions of people and destroy entire communities and industries. I guess it was only a matter of time before the kids who went through that education system grew up and started spouting this nonsense as truth.&quot;

Really?  I&#039;m surprised, because these right-wing historians are always bemoaning how negative teaching of the British Empire is in schools.

It certainly must be a recent thing, when I went through school in the 80s and early 90s, although we did study the British Empire, we also did stuff about the marginalisation of women in history, the Irish potato famine, slavery and colonialism, British social history (including things like the Corn Laws, Diggers, poor laws, the welfare state).  I never came across the idea that colonialism was a good thing in any way, maybe the pendulum has swung back, but I&#039;d be surprised, the era most of the younger teachers were taught in didn&#039;t exactly embrace that idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The same <span class="caps">BBC </span>World ran a few programs recently about how this whitewashing is going on in British schools, which concentrate on the positive aspects of colonial history while leaving out the bits where they happened to kill millions of people and destroy entire communities and industries. I guess it was only a matter of time before the kids who went through that education system grew up and started spouting this nonsense as truth.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Really?  I&#8217;m surprised, because these right-wing historians are always bemoaning how negative teaching of the British Empire is in schools.</p>

	<p>It certainly must be a recent thing, when I went through school in the 80s and early 90s, although we did study the British Empire, we also did stuff about the marginalisation of women in history, the Irish potato famine, slavery and colonialism, British social history (including things like the Corn Laws, Diggers, poor laws, the welfare state).  I never came across the idea that colonialism was a good thing in any way, maybe the pendulum has swung back, but I&#8217;d be surprised, the era most of the younger teachers were taught in didn&#8217;t exactly embrace that idea.</p>
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		<title>By: MFB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71438</link>
		<dc:creator>MFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 09:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71438</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a very strong colonialism-was-good meme among disgruntled right-wing white South Africans as well.

Mind you, what with some of the British planning to round up Gypsies and stick them in camps, it&#039;s almost as if every really bad idea for the last two hundred years is being given a thin coat of paint and trotted out as the solution to all ills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s a very strong colonialism-was-good meme among disgruntled right-wing white South Africans as well.</p>

	<p>Mind you, what with some of the British planning to round up Gypsies and stick them in camps, it&#8217;s almost as if every really bad idea for the last two hundred years is being given a thin coat of paint and trotted out as the solution to all ills.</p>
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		<title>By: taj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/comment-page-1/#comment-71431</link>
		<dc:creator>taj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2005 07:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/11/gandhi-and-his-rabble/#comment-71431</guid>
		<description>What really concerns me about articles like this one is not that there is one nut who actually believes this nonsense, but that there are others out there who have been drinking from this same fountain of revisionist wisdom. I&#039;ve seen educated journalists and historians step up on BBC World TV and bluntly make similar assertions, openly mocking Indians who don&#039;t find colonial history quite so benign.

The same BBC World ran a few programs recently about how this whitewashing is going on in British schools, which concentrate on the positive aspects of colonial history while leaving out the bits where they happened to kill millions of people and destroy entire communities and industries. I guess it was only a matter of time before the kids who went through that education system grew up and started spouting this nonsense as truth. As a result, today most people seem to have heard about the Black hole of Calcutta, but draw a blank on Jallianwalla Bagh.

I know this is a bit tangential to the powerline post, but for folks like me sitting in India with parents and grandparents who have seen the Raj first hand, it&#039;s far too surreal and laughable to even begin to address directly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What really concerns me about articles like this one is not that there is one nut who actually believes this nonsense, but that there are others out there who have been drinking from this same fountain of revisionist wisdom. I&#8217;ve seen educated journalists and historians step up on <span class="caps">BBC </span>World TV and bluntly make similar assertions, openly mocking Indians who don&#8217;t find colonial history quite so benign.</p>

	<p>The same <span class="caps">BBC </span>World ran a few programs recently about how this whitewashing is going on in British schools, which concentrate on the positive aspects of colonial history while leaving out the bits where they happened to kill millions of people and destroy entire communities and industries. I guess it was only a matter of time before the kids who went through that education system grew up and started spouting this nonsense as truth. As a result, today most people seem to have heard about the Black hole of Calcutta, but draw a blank on Jallianwalla Bagh.</p>

	<p>I know this is a bit tangential to the powerline post, but for folks like me sitting in India with parents and grandparents who have seen the Raj first hand, it&#8217;s far too surreal and laughable to even begin to address directly.</p>
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