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	<title>Comments on: Lessig and the Choir</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72885</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 22:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72885</guid>
		<description>&quot;Take money from an organization (which doesn’t appear to be morally guilty of anything-either the school or the insurance company) and give it to the kid, because…&quot;

 . . . because if you entrust somebody with authority to act for you, you are responsible for what he does.

And from the point of view of the insurer (assuming the insurer didn&#039;t have standard policy clauses excluding coverage in this kind of case), because you accepted a premium to defend and indemnify your insured against this kind of risk.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Take money from an organization (which doesn&#8217;t appear to be morally guilty of anything-either the school or the insurance company) and give it to the kid, because&#8230;&#8221;</p>

	<p>. . . because if you entrust somebody with authority to act for you, you are responsible for what he does.</p>

	<p>And from the point of view of the insurer (assuming the insurer didn&#8217;t have standard policy clauses excluding coverage in this kind of case), because you accepted a premium to defend and indemnify your insured against this kind of risk.</p>
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		<title>By: bza</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72879</link>
		<dc:creator>bza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 21:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72879</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But that’s the theory, anyway, and it sure seems like a better idea than to task some harried headmaster with the problem, and punish a single school because they were the ones unlucky enough to hire Mr. Creep.&lt;/i&gt;

According to the &lt;i&gt;New York&lt;/i&gt; article the teacher in question was hired by the school on the recommendation of a donor who at that time was already a convicted pedophiliac.  So I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s the most useful portrayal of the facts to describe the school as unlucky in one of their hiring decisions.  

The article also provides rather a lot of detail that makes it seem that, if teachers and administrators were ignorant of what was going on, they were willfully so. For example: one teacher had a classroom opposite the abuser&#039;s bedroom (recall that this was a boarding school located in a former mansion).  According to Lessig, there were a number of occasions on which this teacher saw him (Lessig)leaving the abuser&#039;s bedroom in the morning. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But that&#8217;s the theory, anyway, and it sure seems like a better idea than to task some harried headmaster with the problem, and punish a single school because they were the ones unlucky enough to hire Mr. Creep.</i></p>

	<p>According to the <i>New York</i> article the teacher in question was hired by the school on the recommendation of a donor who at that time was already a convicted pedophiliac.  So I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s the most useful portrayal of the facts to describe the school as unlucky in one of their hiring decisions.</p>

	<p>The article also provides rather a lot of detail that makes it seem that, if teachers and administrators were ignorant of what was going on, they were willfully so. For example: one teacher had a classroom opposite the abuser&#8217;s bedroom (recall that this was a boarding school located in a former mansion).  According to Lessig, there were a number of occasions on which this teacher saw him (Lessig)leaving the abuser&#8217;s bedroom in the morning.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo Casey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72875</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 20:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72875</guid>
		<description>I would think that, all other things being equal, the case would come to down to the extent that the school could be reasonably held responsible for the actions of the abuser. Did they take reasonable and proper precautions in general to precent abuse? Did they have any knowledge that should have led them to know of, or minimally, to investigate into, the possibility of specific acts of abuse? If they had knowledge, did they act on it? It was precisely the fact that various dioceses of the Catholic Church failed to take reasonable and proper precaution, had knowledge or reasonably should have had knowledge of abuse, and yet failed to act on it -- to the contrary, covered it up and protected the abuser -- that makes them legally and morally liable to the abuse perpetrated by a number of priests. The particulars are important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would think that, all other things being equal, the case would come to down to the extent that the school could be reasonably held responsible for the actions of the abuser. Did they take reasonable and proper precautions in general to precent abuse? Did they have any knowledge that should have led them to know of, or minimally, to investigate into, the possibility of specific acts of abuse? If they had knowledge, did they act on it? It was precisely the fact that various dioceses of the Catholic Church failed to take reasonable and proper precaution, had knowledge or reasonably should have had knowledge of abuse, and yet failed to act on it&#8212;to the contrary, covered it up and protected the abuser&#8212;that makes them legally and morally liable to the abuse perpetrated by a number of priests. The particulars are important.</p>
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		<title>By: a different chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72872</link>
		<dc:creator>a different chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 20:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72872</guid>
		<description>Steve:

&lt;i&gt;But I’m still at a loss as to why money should go from the insurance to the kid.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, call me a crazy idealist, but if an insurance company proffers policies that cover the expenses of sexual abuse, then one would like to make it well worth their while to keep some oversight over their clients.

I wish I could say something like &quot;malpractice insurance weeds out bad doctors, same thing&quot; but alas, that&#039;s not true.  Sigh.  But that&#039;s the theory, anyway, and it sure seems like a better idea than to task some harried headmaster with the problem, and punish a single school because they were the ones unlucky enough to hire Mr. Creep.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve:</p>

	<p><i>But I&#8217;m still at a loss as to why money should go from the insurance to the kid.</i></p>

	<p>Well, call me a crazy idealist, but if an insurance company proffers policies that cover the expenses of sexual abuse, then one would like to make it well worth their while to keep some oversight over their clients.</p>

	<p>I wish I could say something like &#8220;malpractice insurance weeds out bad doctors, same thing&#8221; but alas, that&#8217;s not true.  Sigh.  But that&#8217;s the theory, anyway, and it sure seems like a better idea than to task some harried headmaster with the problem, and punish a single school because they were the ones unlucky enough to hire Mr. Creep.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72855</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 16:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72855</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You might also consider the difference between using the word metaphorically in the context of a legal case and saying that people will literally be attacked.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, Cornyn was talking about attacks that had already happened, and arguing that said attacks were unfortunate, but in a sense understandable. Which makes Oskar Shapley&#039;s &quot;analogy&quot; even stupider than it might appear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>You might also consider the difference between using the word metaphorically in the context of a legal case and saying that people will literally be attacked.</i></p>

	<p>Actually, Cornyn was talking about attacks that had already happened, and arguing that said attacks were unfortunate, but in a sense understandable. Which makes Oskar Shapley&#8217;s &#8220;analogy&#8221; even stupider than it might appear.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72853</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 16:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72853</guid>
		<description>Steve: well, I do think that protecting students from molestation is a lot more important than buying air conditioning, so if the &quot;deep pockets&quot; that be have decided to pump their money into the latter instead of the former, it&#039;s clear they&#039;re at fault.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve: well, I do think that protecting students from molestation is a lot more important than buying air conditioning, so if the &#8220;deep pockets&#8221; that be have decided to pump their money into the latter instead of the former, it&#8217;s clear they&#8217;re at fault.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72848</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 15:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72848</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes, I understand that this is not the same issue and the analogy is not pefect. They never are. On the one hand threats against judges, on the other a lawsuit.&lt;/i&gt;

Er, yeah. Cornyn talked about illegal actions like violently  beating people up, and I talked about legal actions, like arguing your case before the courts. 

&lt;i&gt;Alas, Kieran did not write about a “desire to sue the institution into bankruptcy”, he wrote about arson.&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;Raze&quot; does not mean &quot;burn.&quot; You might also consider the difference between using the word metaphorically in the context of a legal case and saying that people will literally be attacked. 

Where I&#039;d really like the analogy to work, of course, is an equivalence between the amount of media attention John Cornyn can command for his remarks and the amount I can generate for mine. That would be neat. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Yes, I understand that this is not the same issue and the analogy is not pefect. They never are. On the one hand threats against judges, on the other a lawsuit.</i></p>

	<p>Er, yeah. Cornyn talked about illegal actions like violently  beating people up, and I talked about legal actions, like arguing your case before the courts.</p>

	<p><i>Alas, Kieran did not write about a &#8220;desire to sue the institution into bankruptcy&#8221;, he wrote about arson.</i></p>

	<p>&#8220;Raze&#8221; does not mean &#8220;burn.&#8221; You might also consider the difference between using the word metaphorically in the context of a legal case and saying that people will literally be attacked.</p>

	<p>Where I&#8217;d really like the analogy to work, of course, is an equivalence between the amount of media attention John Cornyn can command for his remarks and the amount I can generate for mine. That would be neat.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72847</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 15:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72847</guid>
		<description>Yes-
 Aside from the legal arguments, it is a tricky moral dilemma for me.  
 1) A kid was abused.
 2) Should the kid&#039;s school pay him a whole bunch of money?  I realize alot of our tort law is built around this concept, but I still don&#039;t understand why.  Why, if a kid was abused, should the school have less money for computers, or books, or air conditioning, or whatever?  
 3) Should the kid&#039;s school&#039;s insurance company pay him a whole bunch of money?  I assume the only difference between the school and the insurance company is that the insurance company has more money, and doesn&#039;t have other kids running around (offices full of white collar workers are less sympathetic than schools full of kids).  But I&#039;m still at a loss as to why money should go from the insurance to the kid.  Punish the teacher, sue the teacher, I understand.  Take money from an organization (which doesn&#039;t appear to be morally guilty of anything-either the school or the insurance company) and give it to the kid, because...

Note: I&#039;m not sure of the argument above.  But I do agree that our system of &#039;when something bad happens, take money from the nearest deep pocket&#039; is morally/structurally odd.
Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes-<br />
Aside from the legal arguments, it is a tricky moral dilemma for me.<br />
1) A kid was abused.<br />
2) Should the kid&#8217;s school pay him a whole bunch of money?  I realize alot of our tort law is built around this concept, but I still don&#8217;t understand why.  Why, if a kid was abused, should the school have less money for computers, or books, or air conditioning, or whatever?<br />
3) Should the kid&#8217;s school&#8217;s insurance company pay him a whole bunch of money?  I assume the only difference between the school and the insurance company is that the insurance company has more money, and doesn&#8217;t have other kids running around (offices full of white collar workers are less sympathetic than schools full of kids).  But I&#8217;m still at a loss as to why money should go from the insurance to the kid.  Punish the teacher, sue the teacher, I understand.  Take money from an organization (which doesn&#8217;t appear to be morally guilty of anything-either the school or the insurance company) and give it to the kid, because&#8230;</p>

	<p>Note: I&#8217;m not sure of the argument above.  But I do agree that our system of &#8216;when something bad happens, take money from the nearest deep pocket&#8217; is morally/structurally odd.<br />
Steve</p>
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		<title>By: MNPundit</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72842</link>
		<dc:creator>MNPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 15:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72842</guid>
		<description>This is a difficult case for me. On the one hand, the person was clearly wronged and should be compensated as much as we can do so (since obviously nothing can erase what happened) but on the other hand holding the school completely responsible strikes me as a mistake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is a difficult case for me. On the one hand, the person was clearly wronged and should be compensated as much as we can do so (since obviously nothing can erase what happened) but on the other hand holding the school completely responsible strikes me as a mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72840</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 15:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72840</guid>
		<description>Kieran talked about understandable desires. 
Senator Cormyn talked about understandable actions. 
You talked out of your ass. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kieran talked about understandable desires.<br />
Senator Cormyn talked about understandable actions.<br />
You talked out of your ass.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72838</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 15:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72838</guid>
		<description>Oskar Shapley: Comments? You see, Kieran didn&#039;t write, &lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/12/factcheckorg-thinks-you-are-a-moron/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;he typed&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oskar Shapley: Comments? You see, Kieran didn&#8217;t write, <a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/12/factcheckorg-thinks-you-are-a-moron/" rel="nofollow">he typed</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: david</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72837</link>
		<dc:creator>david</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 14:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72837</guid>
		<description>To raze is not to burn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To raze is not to burn.</p>
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		<title>By: Oskar Shapley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72834</link>
		<dc:creator>Oskar Shapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 14:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72834</guid>
		<description>Hmmm...  

Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) : &quot;&lt;b&gt;I don&#039;t know if there is a cause-and-effect connection&lt;/b&gt; but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of courthouse violence recently that&#039;s been on the news and I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where &lt;b&gt;judges are making political decisions&lt;/b&gt; yet are &lt;b&gt;unaccountable to the public&lt;/b&gt;, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where &lt;b&gt; some people engage in - engage in violence.&lt;/b&gt;&quot;

Kieran:

&quot;&lt;b&gt;I don’t know about the legal merits,&lt;/b&gt; of course, but on the basis of their past experiences, together with the &lt;b&gt;evasions&lt;/b&gt; and blame-the-victim &lt;b&gt;insinuations from the school’s President and its chief lawyer&lt;/b&gt;, it’s easy to see how the &lt;b&gt;litigants’ could have a desire to raze the institution to the ground.&lt;/b&gt;&quot;

Yes, I understand that this is not the same issue and the analogy is not pefect. They never are. On the one hand threats against judges, on the other a lawsuit. 

Alas, Kieran did not write about a &quot;desire to sue the institution into bankruptcy&quot;, he wrote about arson.

Comments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmmm&#8230;</p>

	<p>Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) : &#8220;<b>I don&#8217;t know if there is a cause-and-effect connection</b> but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. Certainly nothing new, but we seem to have run through a spate of courthouse violence recently that&#8217;s been on the news and I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters on some occasions where <b>judges are making political decisions</b> yet are <b>unaccountable to the public</b>, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where <b> some people engage in &#8211; engage in violence.</b>&#8221;</p>

	<p>Kieran:</p>

	<p>&#8220;<b>I don&#8217;t know about the legal merits,</b> of course, but on the basis of their past experiences, together with the <b>evasions</b> and blame-the-victim <b>insinuations from the school&#8217;s President and its chief lawyer</b>, it&#8217;s easy to see how the <b>litigants&#8217; could have a desire to raze the institution to the ground.</b>&#8221;</p>

	<p>Yes, I understand that this is not the same issue and the analogy is not pefect. They never are. On the one hand threats against judges, on the other a lawsuit.</p>

	<p>Alas, Kieran did not write about a &#8220;desire to sue the institution into bankruptcy&#8221;, he wrote about arson.</p>

	<p>Comments?</p>
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		<title>By: alkali</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72831</link>
		<dc:creator>alkali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 14:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72831</guid>
		<description>As I understand it, under a New Jersey statute, nonprofits have limited liability for negligent acts but may be entirely liable for intentional acts.  The issue Lessig is arguing is whether the abuse of students should be considered a negligent or intentional act on the part of the school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I understand it, under a New Jersey statute, nonprofits have limited liability for negligent acts but may be entirely liable for intentional acts.  The issue Lessig is arguing is whether the abuse of students should be considered a negligent or intentional act on the part of the school.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/comment-page-1/#comment-72813</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2005 11:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/05/25/lessig-and-the-choir/#comment-72813</guid>
		<description>But if the charge changes from negligence to something else...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But if the charge changes from negligence to something else&#8230;</p>
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