Comments on: Party of YES! http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 03:14:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: PhilK http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74947 PhilK Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:01:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74947 Natasha, I think p oneill was being snarcastic. Natasha, I think p oneill was being snarcastic.

]]> By: natasha http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74930 natasha Sun, 12 Jun 2005 07:15:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74930 p oneill - "Democrats should also see why the Ohio scandals make private social security accounts imperative. With the country in effective one party rule, the geniuses behind these investments can’t be trusted to leave that famous filing cabinet of IOUs in West Virginia alone. People must have private accounts so that the rich Ohio Republican dream of collectables and hedge funds is accessible to every American." IOUs? Are you telling us that the fiscal full faith and credit of the US government isn't worth a bucket of warm spit? Because if that's what you're saying, then absolutely no one in their right mind would either accept our currency or buy US Treasury Bonds. Yet for some reason, when I take my money to the store, backed up as it is by nothing but the say-so of the US government, people always take it in trade for goods and services. And I don't see why we should trust corporate America (Enron, WorldCom, Global Crossing & etc.) any better. Even in cases that don't involve outright graft, the market goes through boom and bust cycles all by itself. What happens when a bunch of people retire in the years following a big bubble burst, like the one in 2001, when millions of private investment accounts have been reduced to pennies on the dollar of their former value? I'll tell you what will happen: There will be an enormous public outcry for a defined benefit program that provides a floor on the income of ... oh, wait a minute, we already have that. It's called Social Security. Bush has created a multi-trillion dollar black hole in our budget here today, but he thinks he's competent enough to deal with a possible budget gap 40 years from now. Bullpuckey. p oneill – “Democrats should also see why the Ohio scandals make private social security accounts imperative. With the country in effective one party rule, the geniuses behind these investments can’t be trusted to leave that famous filing cabinet of IOUs in West Virginia alone. People must have private accounts so that the rich Ohio Republican dream of collectables and hedge funds is accessible to every American.”

IOUs? Are you telling us that the fiscal full faith and credit of the US government isn’t worth a bucket of warm spit? Because if that’s what you’re saying, then absolutely no one in their right mind would either accept our currency or buy US Treasury Bonds. Yet for some reason, when I take my money to the store, backed up as it is by nothing but the say-so of the US government, people always take it in trade for goods and services.

And I don’t see why we should trust corporate America (Enron, WorldCom, Global Crossing & etc.) any better. Even in cases that don’t involve outright graft, the market goes through boom and bust cycles all by itself. What happens when a bunch of people retire in the years following a big bubble burst, like the one in 2001, when millions of private investment accounts have been reduced to pennies on the dollar of their former value?

I’ll tell you what will happen: There will be an enormous public outcry for a defined benefit program that provides a floor on the income of … oh, wait a minute, we already have that. It’s called Social Security.

Bush has created a multi-trillion dollar black hole in our budget here today, but he thinks he’s competent enough to deal with a possible budget gap 40 years from now. Bullpuckey.

]]> By: Daniel http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74907 Daniel Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:43:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74907 I am also a finance geek, and I would like to make the point that if you give someone $350m and he gives you back $125m, the correct response is to rip his bloody throat out. I think Robert Merton has a proof of this somewhere. I am also a finance geek, and I would like to make the point that if you give someone $350m and he gives you back $125m, the correct response is to rip his bloody throat out. I think Robert Merton has a proof of this somewhere.

]]> By: Itea http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74858 Itea Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:18:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74858 Thomas - Do you think it is good for the community when public officials choose to invest public funds in monetary instruments that are controlled by large campaign contributors who stand to make large personal financial gains from said investments? I'll be very clear. This investment would have been a sorry deal for the citizens of Ohio even if the fund had appreciated 1000% in five years. Giving huge financial rewards to political contributors is practically the definition of a corrupt government. Thomas –
Do you think it is good for the community when public officials choose to invest public funds in monetary instruments that are controlled by large campaign contributors who stand to make large personal financial gains from said investments?

I’ll be very clear. This investment would have been a sorry deal for the citizens of Ohio even if the fund had appreciated 1000% in five years. Giving huge financial rewards to political contributors is practically the definition of a corrupt government.

]]> By: Matt Weiner http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74841 Matt Weiner Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:07:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74841 Dsquared--IIRC Windham Hill bought Fahey's Takoma label, or something like that. After 30 seconds googling, all I'm willing to put in, I am unable to confirm that. But Takoma (when under Fahey's control) <a href="http://www.windham.com/artists/artist.jsp?id=153001" rel="nofollow">did put out</a> George Winston's first solo album, which may be a bit disturbing to all us hipsters who go round saying "There's no freakin way Fahey is new age, dude. Those things are totally different." Dsquared—IIRC Windham Hill bought Fahey’s Takoma label, or something like that.

After 30 seconds googling, all I’m willing to put in, I am unable to confirm that. But Takoma (when under Fahey’s control) did put out George Winston’s first solo album, which may be a bit disturbing to all us hipsters who go round saying “There’s no freakin way Fahey is new age, dude. Those things are totally different.”

]]> By: save_the_rustbelt http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74827 save_the_rustbelt Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:26:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74827 Taft's press conference yesterday was emabarassing. He looked like a beaten dog trying to get some small act of compassion from his owner. Taft is too lame to be dishonest, but apparently he is too lame to control his own Chief of Staff, let alone a state government. There is about $12 million "misappropriated" from the coin fund, and Noe's lawyer made that statement. Good Grief! (Look for Noe to use the "my partners did it" defense, which will be a spectacular flop). The only question for Noe will be state prison then federal, or federal then state? Taft’s press conference yesterday was emabarassing. He looked like a beaten dog trying to get some small act of compassion from his owner.

Taft is too lame to be dishonest, but apparently he is too lame to control his own Chief of Staff, let alone a state government.

There is about $12 million “misappropriated” from the coin fund, and Noe’s lawyer made that statement. Good Grief! (Look for Noe to use the “my partners did it” defense, which will be a spectacular flop). The only question for Noe will be state prison then federal, or federal then state?

]]> By: Manly Republican http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74822 Manly Republican Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:01:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74822 Why are all you liberals bitching? After all, the Republicans invested $350 million dollars in $1 JFK jr commemorative coins from the soveriegn state of Liberia. I bet you'll be bitching in a couple of months when Taft invests the remaining $125 million in the sure thing of Iraqi Dinar currency futures currently being advertized on many respected media outlets such as Men's News Daily. Why are all you liberals bitching?

After all, the Republicans invested $350 million dollars in $1 JFK jr commemorative coins from the soveriegn state of Liberia.

I bet you’ll be bitching in a couple of months when Taft invests the remaining $125 million in the sure thing of Iraqi Dinar currency futures currently being advertized on many respected media outlets such as Men’s News Daily.

]]> By: Thomas http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74819 Thomas Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:34:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74819 I should correct my previous statement on the coin investment, because it is no longer clear to me that the state did receive a good rate of return on the investment. Many news accounts are referring to a loss of $12 million from the fund. Many of those refer to fund as being $55 million. Others note that Ohio placed $50 million with the fund. Still others note that Ohio had received, prior to the scandal, more than $15 million in profits from the fund. How that math works out, I don't know--it isn't clear where the $55 million comes from (as opposed to the $50 million), or whether the $15 million in profits were reinvested, etc. Until I see a full explanation of those pieces--presumably in court documents, since most journalists won't bother with numbers--I'll withdraw my prior statement. Whether others should refrain from commenting if they can't answer these questions, I'll leave to them. marc--it's a what? $14 billion fund?, for godssakes. This wasn't a huge part of the portfolio. And if private pension funds didn't invest in such schemes, most of these schemes wouldn't be funded. It's quite ordinary and common to make such investments for pension funds. I should correct my previous statement on the coin investment, because it is no longer clear to me that the state did receive a good rate of return on the investment. Many news accounts are referring to a loss of $12 million from the fund. Many of those refer to fund as being $55 million. Others note that Ohio placed $50 million with the fund. Still others note that Ohio had received, prior to the scandal, more than $15 million in profits from the fund. How that math works out, I don’t know—it isn’t clear where the $55 million comes from (as opposed to the $50 million), or whether the $15 million in profits were reinvested, etc. Until I see a full explanation of those pieces—presumably in court documents, since most journalists won’t bother with numbers—I’ll withdraw my prior statement. Whether others should refrain from commenting if they can’t answer these questions, I’ll leave to them.

marc—it’s a what? $14 billion fund?, for godssakes. This wasn’t a huge part of the portfolio. And if private pension funds didn’t invest in such schemes, most of these schemes wouldn’t be funded. It’s quite ordinary and common to make such investments for pension funds.

]]> By: Marc http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74816 Marc Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:00:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74816 Samchevre: it was highly leveraged and they invested a large fraction of their funds in it. When they lost the money they then tried to hide it for as long as they could. We've seen a whole lot of commentary on this here in Ohio; suffice it to say that the financial community seems to be unanimous in saying that neither of these investments should ever have been made by any pension fund or public system. Samchevre: it was highly leveraged and they invested a large fraction of their funds in it. When they lost the money they then tried to hide it for as long as they could.

We’ve seen a whole lot of commentary on this here in Ohio; suffice it to say that the financial community seems to be unanimous in saying that neither of these investments should ever have been made by any pension fund or public system.

]]> By: Marc http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74815 Marc Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:56:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74815 Thomas is repeating the previous republican talking points, from well before the STOLEN 12 million dollars were discovered. Jesus Christ. We have a dubious investment given to a huge campaign contributor to one party; another enormous scheme involving hundreds of millions of dollars lost in a disastrous investment, with no public knowledge or notification... And we have people either defending The Party or saying they're all the same. Never mind that these sorts of things only seem to happen under conditions of one-party rule; The Republican Party is always right. For those who are saying "they're all the same": GUESS WHAT. Because of term limits ALL of the GOP candidates for governors are current statewide officials...e.g. part of this corrupt system. The Democrats have two very good statewide candidates: Mike Coleman (popular mayor of Columbus) and Ted Strickland (congressman from SE Ohio). Neither is part of the current system; both have reputations for integrity. Thomas is repeating the previous republican talking points, from well before the STOLEN 12 million dollars were discovered.

Jesus Christ. We have a dubious investment given to a huge campaign contributor to one party; another enormous scheme involving hundreds of millions of dollars lost in a disastrous investment, with no public knowledge or notification…

And we have people either defending The Party or saying they’re all the same. Never mind that these sorts of things only seem to happen under conditions of one-party rule; The Republican Party is always right.

For those who are saying “they’re all the same”:

GUESS WHAT. Because of term limits ALL of the GOP candidates for governors are current statewide officials…e.g. part of this corrupt system.

The Democrats have two very good statewide candidates: Mike Coleman (popular mayor of Columbus) and Ted Strickland (congressman from SE Ohio). Neither is part of the current system; both have reputations for integrity.

]]> By: SamChevre http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74813 SamChevre Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:50:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74813 I am a finance geek—I have to point something out. Investing a small portion of your investments in a high-risk, counter-cyclical investment is prudent; every competent financial adviser will advise it. Whether the hedge fund was a good hedge fund I don’t know, but the fact that it lost a lot this year DOES NOT mean it wasn’t a prudent investment. I am a finance geek—I have to point something out. Investing a small portion of your investments in a high-risk, counter-cyclical investment is prudent; every competent financial adviser will advise it. Whether the hedge fund was a good hedge fund I don’t know, but the fact that it lost a lot this year DOES NOT mean it wasn’t a prudent investment.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74811 jet Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:24:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74811 Thomas, Where do you see that the fund made a good return this year in spite of the crazy investments? If all the GOP'ers are guilty of is callow recklessness, then that is quite different than simple looting. Thomas,
Where do you see that the fund made a good return this year in spite of the crazy investments? If all the GOP’ers are guilty of is callow recklessness, then that is quite different than simple looting.

]]> By: Itea http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74809 Itea Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:28:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74809 thomas - This _shouldn't_ need to be said, but... - The shitty thing about the coin deal was that the investment was rather clearly a quid pro quo in exchange for Noe's investments (I mean, campaign contributions). - Whether the fund's $350 MM investment was a good idea is perhaps up for debate. What should not be up for debate is that this was known many, many months ago, but the governor's office kept it very quiet. thomas –
This shouldn’t need to be said, but…

– The shitty thing about the coin deal was that the investment was rather clearly a quid pro quo in exchange for Noe’s investments (I mean, campaign contributions). – Whether the fund’s $350 MM investment was a good idea is perhaps up for debate. What should not be up for debate is that this was known many, many months ago, but the governor’s office kept it very quiet. ]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74806 Barry Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:47:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74806 crisper, I'm beginning to believe that the answer to many such questions posed by foreigners is "you wouldn't understand, you live in a free country". The USA is rapidly changing into a one-party kleptocracy, with the only choice between corporate looters and whack-job corrupt theocrats. Most of what you might have thought is simply obsolete, and refers to a USA which exists only in history. crisper, I’m beginning to believe that the answer to many such questions posed by foreigners is “you wouldn’t understand, you live in a free country”.

The USA is rapidly changing into a one-party kleptocracy, with the only choice between corporate looters and whack-job corrupt theocrats. Most of what you might have thought is simply obsolete, and refers to a USA which exists only in history.

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-74799 dsquared Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:14:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/09/party-of-yes/#comment-74799 Wasn't John Fahey on Windham Hill records at one point? Wasn’t John Fahey on Windham Hill records at one point?

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