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	<title>Comments on: In Bed with the Reds</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: McDuff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75580</link>
		<dc:creator>McDuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75580</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;A citizen of the world has no allegiance to any country and believes this somehow to be praiseworthy.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Damn straight.  This particular &quot;citizen of the world&quot; feels no particular reason that I should link arms with any of the football hooligans in my country just because we were born on the same lump of dirt.  When I have friends all over the world, why should I align myself morally with those I disagree with, oppose, and don&#039;t even know personally?  Why should my connection to Joe Bloggs down the street who votes for the BNP be considered more compelling than my connection to Joe Sixpack in Alabama who voted for the GOP but at least talked to me about it over a beer, just because some bigwigs who died before I was born decided to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say &quot;you guys on this side are going to fight the guys on the other side, now get to!&quot;

I have an allegiance to democracy, liberalism, freedom and basic human motherfucking decency.  If you have this, be you in Germany or England or the USA or Nigeria, then you have more in common with me than the guy next door who does not.  So why should my own alliances not reflect that?  Why should I blindly swear to pin my destiny to rock rather than to an ideal?  Because of some thousand year-old fatally flawed system that doesn&#039;t work but that we haven&#039;t got rid of yet?  Because nobody has worked out that you can run a state government as an administrative body and not have to force everyone to be tied to the land with laws and pledges of allegiance?

Frankly, I love England, but I don&#039;t see why any pissant government has the right to tell me I can&#039;t love America just as much.  So, yeah, citizen of the world.  Citizen of it all.  Free to love it all and hate it all, to stand in the bar and say how crap it is or to stand on the podium and say how wonderful it is.  You can admire me, bite me, or just get on with your own life and have a drink.  But if you&#039;re listening to the beaurocrats and the generals when they tell you it&#039;s the law you&#039;ve got to do this and that because you were born here, not because you decided to like some kind of grown up with a mind of your own, your intellectual high horse is mud. So climb down off it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;<i>A citizen of the world has no allegiance to any country and believes this somehow to be praiseworthy.</i>&#8221;</p>

	<p>Damn straight.  This particular &#8220;citizen of the world&#8221; feels no particular reason that I should link arms with any of the football hooligans in my country just because we were born on the same lump of dirt.  When I have friends all over the world, why should I align myself morally with those I disagree with, oppose, and don&#8217;t even know personally?  Why should my connection to Joe Bloggs down the street who votes for the <span class="caps">BNP</span> be considered more compelling than my connection to Joe Sixpack in Alabama who voted for the <span class="caps">GOP</span> but at least talked to me about it over a beer, just because some bigwigs who died before I was born decided to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say &#8220;you guys on this side are going to fight the guys on the other side, now get to!&#8221;</p>

	<p>I have an allegiance to democracy, liberalism, freedom and basic human motherfucking decency.  If you have this, be you in Germany or England or the <span class="caps">USA</span> or Nigeria, then you have more in common with me than the guy next door who does not.  So why should my own alliances not reflect that?  Why should I blindly swear to pin my destiny to rock rather than to an ideal?  Because of some thousand year-old fatally flawed system that doesn&#8217;t work but that we haven&#8217;t got rid of yet?  Because nobody has worked out that you can run a state government as an administrative body and not have to force everyone to be tied to the land with laws and pledges of allegiance?</p>

	<p>Frankly, I love England, but I don&#8217;t see why any pissant government has the right to tell me I can&#8217;t love America just as much.  So, yeah, citizen of the world.  Citizen of it all.  Free to love it all and hate it all, to stand in the bar and say how crap it is or to stand on the podium and say how wonderful it is.  You can admire me, bite me, or just get on with your own life and have a drink.  But if you&#8217;re listening to the beaurocrats and the generals when they tell you it&#8217;s the law you&#8217;ve got to do this and that because you were born here, not because you decided to like some kind of grown up with a mind of your own, your intellectual high horse is mud. So climb down off it.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75518</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75518</guid>
		<description>abb1, you mean &quot;granfalloon&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1, you mean &#8220;granfalloon&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75512</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75512</guid>
		<description>Also, Billings, if you find it objectionable that someone &#039;wants to reshape the world to fit some mental map of his own&#039;, then what would be a good motive to become active in politics, in your opinion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, Billings, if you find it objectionable that someone &#8216;wants to reshape the world to fit some mental map of his own&#8217;, then what would be a good motive to become active in politics, in your opinion?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave F</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75511</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75511</guid>
		<description>The one thing that I find petty and objectionable about Crooked Timber is some of its founders&#039; apparent need to have a go at other people&#039;s blogs in self-righteous terms. Even the commenters are objected to, as if  it is somehow criminal to allow free speech. 
Where does this end, Henry? Why do you guys keep sniping at Instapundit, for example? We get that you don&#039;t like his views or his tone. Others find him useful for links to items one might otherwise not have found. It&#039;s irrelevant whether one agrees with the views expressed or not. The point is to at least try not to stay in one&#039;s little ghetto of mutally supportive minds. 

Crooked Timber has no claim to be moral arbiter of the blogosphere. It&#039;s a knockdown free-for-all. For God&#039;s sake focus on more influential and targets.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The one thing that I find petty and objectionable about Crooked Timber is some of its founders&#8217; apparent need to have a go at other people&#8217;s blogs in self-righteous terms. Even the commenters are objected to, as if  it is somehow criminal to allow free speech.<br />
Where does this end, Henry? Why do you guys keep sniping at Instapundit, for example? We get that you don&#8217;t like his views or his tone. Others find him useful for links to items one might otherwise not have found. It&#8217;s irrelevant whether one agrees with the views expressed or not. The point is to at least try not to stay in one&#8217;s little ghetto of mutally supportive minds.</p>

	<p>Crooked Timber has no claim to be moral arbiter of the blogosphere. It&#8217;s a knockdown free-for-all. For God&#8217;s sake focus on more influential and targets.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75506</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75506</guid>
		<description>I too believe that being a citizen of the world with no allegiance to any particular government (or race, or ethnicity, or any other &lt;i&gt;carass&lt;/i&gt;) is praiseworthy. And it doesn&#039;t prevent you from being a good citizen of your community, in fact, it&#039;s a prerequisite of being a good citizen. 

What&#039;s your problem? I understand that this philosophy is different from yours, but otherwise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I too believe that being a citizen of the world with no allegiance to any particular government (or race, or ethnicity, or any other <i>carass</i>) is praiseworthy. And it doesn&#8217;t prevent you from being a good citizen of your community, in fact, it&#8217;s a prerequisite of being a good citizen.</p>

	<p>What&#8217;s your problem? I understand that this philosophy is different from yours, but otherwise?</p>
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		<title>By: Billings</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75492</link>
		<dc:creator>Billings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75492</guid>
		<description>Motives don&#039;t have to be hidden for it to be fair to question them. All great fortunes are founded on a crime, someone observed. (All right, he was French -- but still). One can only speculate about Soros&#039;. I suppose his currency speculation can be defended as maintaining capitalism&#039;s rigor, but I&#039;ve never heard that he produced anything worthwhile. His fund is registered in Curaçao a Caribbean tax haven repeatedly cited as one of the world&#039;s most important centers for laundering Latin American drug trade money. By operating from Curaçao, Soros not only avoids paying taxes but also hides the identity and nature of his investors and what he does with their money. His philanthropy? Guilt.




Perhaps someone can enlighten me. A citizen of the world has no allegiance to any country and believes this somehow to be praiseworthy. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Motives don&#8217;t have to be hidden for it to be fair to question them. All great fortunes are founded on a crime, someone observed. (All right, he was French&#8212;but still). One can only speculate about Soros&#8217;. I suppose his currency speculation can be defended as maintaining capitalism&#8217;s rigor, but I&#8217;ve never heard that he produced anything worthwhile. His fund is registered in Cura&#231;ao a Caribbean tax haven repeatedly cited as one of the world&#8217;s most important centers for laundering Latin American drug trade money. By operating from Cura&#231;ao, Soros not only avoids paying taxes but also hides the identity and nature of his investors and what he does with their money. His philanthropy? Guilt.</p>




	<p>Perhaps someone can enlighten me. A citizen of the world has no allegiance to any country and believes this somehow to be praiseworthy.</p>
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		<title>By: PersonFromPorlock</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75489</link>
		<dc:creator>PersonFromPorlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75489</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But I can’t understand why, say, Sebastian Holsclaw (who’s nobody’s torture apologist) is happy to be associated as a co-blogger with this particular bunch of yahoos.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, that&#039;s just because the Right is actually as diverse as the Left pretends to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But I can&#8217;t understand why, say, Sebastian Holsclaw (who&#8217;s nobody&#8217;s torture apologist) is happy to be associated as a co-blogger with this particular bunch of yahoos.</i></p>

	<p>Oh, that&#8217;s just because the Right is actually as diverse as the Left pretends to be.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75482</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75482</guid>
		<description>billings - Being a &quot;citizen of the world&quot; or even a &quot;billionaire&quot; are not the damning indictments you appear to think they are. The rest of your comment is just name calling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>billings &#8211; Being a &#8220;citizen of the world&#8221; or even a &#8220;billionaire&#8221; are not the damning indictments you appear to think they are. The rest of your comment is just name calling.</p>
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		<title>By: A Scott Crawford</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75474</link>
		<dc:creator>A Scott Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75474</guid>
		<description>Without claiming any particular direct knowledge one way or another regarding the conditions at Gitmo... It strikes me that the actual documents are available on-line and the authors and sources are checkable (if one cared enough to put in the hours).  

The Red Cross report from nov. 2004 doesn&#039;t impress me as particularly serious in its attributions.  There aren&#039;t random people walking in and out of a US military detention facility in Cuba (&quot;pssst, wanna buy a cigar&quot;).  As all the IRC conversations and contacts were certainly recorded, transcribed and annotated in exhaustive detail (the military bureaucracy loves generating paper if nothing else), there&#039;s no clear reason not to attribute sources that the military (and CIA) are able to confirm or discredit.  

By playing coy with sources for this level of accusation, even if undertaken with the best intent, they&#039;ve made it easy for the US military to ignore or dispute the charges and hard for others to verify their claims.  It&#039;s a fact that there have been abuses in US military detention facilities.  It&#039;s also a fact that there have been a tedius number of demonstrably false and bizzare accusations from detainees and supposedly independent observers.  The wise default position is probably skepticism on all sides.

I think it&#039;s reasonable to give more weight to attributions and testimonials that are checkable.  And therefore would hope that the Red Cross is willing and able to provide sources or additional information that addresses the difference between their original charges and the findings of the military&#039;s investigators.  Even giving the IRC guys some slack as non-journalists, they should know better than to be other than literal in leveling a courts martial type accusation (which means all the video and transcipts and logs would be made public).   
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Without claiming any particular direct knowledge one way or another regarding the conditions at Gitmo&#8230; It strikes me that the actual documents are available on-line and the authors and sources are checkable (if one cared enough to put in the hours).</p>

	<p>The Red Cross report from nov. 2004 doesn&#8217;t impress me as particularly serious in its attributions.  There aren&#8217;t random people walking in and out of a US military detention facility in Cuba (&#8220;pssst, wanna buy a cigar&#8221;).  As all the <span class="caps">IRC</span> conversations and contacts were certainly recorded, transcribed and annotated in exhaustive detail (the military bureaucracy loves generating paper if nothing else), there&#8217;s no clear reason not to attribute sources that the military (and <span class="caps">CIA</span>) are able to confirm or discredit.</p>

	<p>By playing coy with sources for this level of accusation, even if undertaken with the best intent, they&#8217;ve made it easy for the US military to ignore or dispute the charges and hard for others to verify their claims.  It&#8217;s a fact that there have been abuses in US military detention facilities.  It&#8217;s also a fact that there have been a tedius number of demonstrably false and bizzare accusations from detainees and supposedly independent observers.  The wise default position is probably skepticism on all sides.</p>

	<p>I think it&#8217;s reasonable to give more weight to attributions and testimonials that are checkable.  And therefore would hope that the Red Cross is willing and able to provide sources or additional information that addresses the difference between their original charges and the findings of the military&#8217;s investigators.  Even giving the <span class="caps">IRC</span> guys some slack as non-journalists, they should know better than to be other than literal in leveling a courts martial type accusation (which means all the video and transcipts and logs would be made public).</p>

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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75459</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75459</guid>
		<description>Are you implying that he has hidden motives then, &#039;cause if not - why should they be &#039;questioned&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Are you implying that he has hidden motives then, &#8216;cause if not &#8211; why should they be &#8216;questioned&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Billings</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75455</link>
		<dc:creator>Billings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75455</guid>
		<description>To question the motives of Soros, the egomaniacal billionaire and &quot;citizen of the world&quot; who wants to reshape the world to fit  some mental map of his own, is now anti-Semitism?
Hmm. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To question the motives of Soros, the egomaniacal billionaire and &#8220;citizen of the world&#8221; who wants to reshape the world to fit  some mental map of his own, is now anti-Semitism?<br />
Hmm.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75430</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75430</guid>
		<description>Yeah, over-the-top rhetoric came into American politics with Carville. It&#039;s a damn shame. Before then everyone was civil. And the Republicans still are, of course, the poor helpless dears.

My experience with Cella was when I read a rather mindless anti-Soros bit of his. I pointed out that Soros, a refugee from Hitler and Stalin, a self-made billionaire, and a man who spent tens or hundreds of millions bringing down the Evil Empire, is not really a guy to dismiss just because he&#039;s anti-Bush. 

Cella had said that Soros was morally bankrupt, and when I asked why, he responded that it was because he followed John Stuart Mill (rather than Aquinas).

One of the Red State people got pretty huffy because there was a little hint in my communications that Cella might be anti-Semitic. So it was a relief to everyone to know that the problem was really the odious and detestable Mill. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, over-the-top rhetoric came into American politics with Carville. It&#8217;s a damn shame. Before then everyone was civil. And the Republicans still are, of course, the poor helpless dears.</p>

	<p>My experience with Cella was when I read a rather mindless anti-Soros bit of his. I pointed out that Soros, a refugee from Hitler and Stalin, a self-made billionaire, and a man who spent tens or hundreds of millions bringing down the Evil Empire, is not really a guy to dismiss just because he&#8217;s anti-Bush.</p>

	<p>Cella had said that Soros was morally bankrupt, and when I asked why, he responded that it was because he followed John Stuart Mill (rather than Aquinas).</p>

	<p>One of the Red State people got pretty huffy because there was a little hint in my communications that Cella might be anti-Semitic. So it was a relief to everyone to know that the problem was really the odious and detestable Mill.</p>


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		<title>By: Anarch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75424</link>
		<dc:creator>Anarch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75424</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Henry&lt;/b&gt;: &lt;i&gt;Frankly Markus, I can’t see how anyone who reads this with any care can come to any conclusion other than the one that I did. He’s not in the least ambiguous.&lt;/i&gt;

Anyone know whether Cella ever answered the question of whether he thought atheists should be permitted in public office?

Although, hell, the fact that I can write that in absolute seriousness tells you pretty much everything you need to know...

&lt;b&gt;rilkefan&lt;/b&gt;: &lt;i&gt;SH, wish you were writing more at ObWi.&lt;/i&gt;

Agreed.  You too, &lt;b&gt;rilkefan&lt;/b&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>Henry</b>: <i>Frankly Markus, I can&#8217;t see how anyone who reads this with any care can come to any conclusion other than the one that I did. He&#8217;s not in the least ambiguous.</i></p>

	<p>Anyone know whether Cella ever answered the question of whether he thought atheists should be permitted in public office?</p>

	<p>Although, hell, the fact that I can write that in absolute seriousness tells you pretty much everything you need to know&#8230;</p>

	<p><b>rilkefan</b>: <i>SH, wish you were writing more at ObWi.</i></p>

	<p>Agreed.  You too, <b>rilkefan</b>.</p>
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		<title>By: luci phyrr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75420</link>
		<dc:creator>luci phyrr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75420</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;they hadn’t yet noticed that he [Tacitus] was a complete blowhard&lt;/i&gt;

A rude, unbearable pompous, blowhard, that is...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>they hadn&#8217;t yet noticed that he [Tacitus] was a complete blowhard</i></p>

	<p>A rude, unbearable pompous, blowhard, that is&#8230;</p>

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		<title>By: Mark Kilmer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/comment-page-1/#comment-75418</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Kilmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/06/17/in-bed-with-the-reds/#comment-75418</guid>
		<description>You did not read my post, Henry.  I did not write that Durbin&#039;s diatribe was &quot;just another example of Democrats’ hatred for Bush and Republicans.&quot;  Not even close.  My argument was a little more complex that that.

There is a mindset amongst the Democrats, the genesis of which I put with Carville and Begala, where the Democrat masses have been trained to want to hear such over-the-top dimwittery.  IT&#039;s not a case of &quot;the public gets what the public wants&quot;; rather, we&#039;re looking at &quot;the public wants what the public gets.&quot;

And this seems to apply not simply to the President and, by extension, elected Republicans; you expect it of, and replicate it for, such institutions as RedState.org.

I wish I were wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You did not read my post, Henry.  I did not write that Durbin&#8217;s diatribe was &#8220;just another example of Democrats&#8217; hatred for Bush and Republicans.&#8221;  Not even close.  My argument was a little more complex that that.</p>

	<p>There is a mindset amongst the Democrats, the genesis of which I put with Carville and Begala, where the Democrat masses have been trained to want to hear such over-the-top dimwittery.  IT&#8217;s not a case of &#8220;the public gets what the public wants&#8221;; rather, we&#8217;re looking at &#8220;the public wants what the public gets.&#8221;</p>

	<p>And this seems to apply not simply to the President and, by extension, elected Republicans; you expect it of, and replicate it for, such institutions as RedState.org.</p>

	<p>I wish I were wrong.</p>
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